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- To: wai(--nospam--at)euken.com
- Subject: Fwd: FW: American Engineers have it good?
- From: rlewis(--nospam--at)techteam.org (Richard Lewis)
- Date: 07 Aug 1997 12:39:49 GMT
-----Original Message----- From: tgstring(--nospam--at)mindspring.com [SMTP:tgstring(--nospam--at)mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 2:40 PM To: Dennis S. Wish PE Subject: RE: American Engineers have it good? Dear Dennis, Don't confuse PEPP with the entire NSPE membership. Their surveys are mailed to some 52,000 members. PEPP is simply a subgroup of NSPE. Their salary survey was compiled from over 9,000 responses, almost 4,000 were civil/structural disciplines. The structurals (736) have a median income of $66,771. As you may know, ASCE also publishes a salary survey each year which represents about 20,000 employees and around 1,000 firms in both public and private sectors. The median salaries for these civil engineers at Grade VI (typical of your engineering status) easily top $60,000. This number does not include any other discipline outside of the civil / structural as you unjustly accused. I happen to know the readership of CE News quite well, including the overlap of the societies. No, these survey results are not based on EVERYBODY but as a publisher, I have conducted many surveys in this industry and I can safely say that civil engineers are a homogenous group of professionals. It doesn't take 100 percent response to draw accurate conclusions. The 90 plus page surveys from ASCE and NSPE are each very comprehensive in discipline and regional categories and are certainly better than the few wanted ads in the Classified section of CE News. Dennis, rather than get into a pissing contest with you, why don't we put away our flame-throwers and get to the root of the problem. Remember, I'm a civil engineer. I'm on your side. It is not my intention to offend anyone by my "Comment" column, but sometimes I need to rattle the cage a little to get things going. I realize that life has gotten tougher for sole practitioner engineers, relative to what it was several years ago. It disturbs me that you believe I don't know the amount of pressure applied to the "average" working household today. I started out with less than nothing several years ago -- a high school drop-out in the midwest. I earned my BSCE from the University of Illinois while working for a consulting engineering firm as a survey rodman. My father was an engineer and tried to talk me out of the profession. He said engineers don't make enough money. I'm not some rich kid. Most rich kids stay away from technical professions. Today, I'm at the helm of two engineering related businesses. I started both from nothing. CE News began in my basement in 1989. As for competition, I had Goliath for a competitor. A $10 million company who has been in business since the late 1800's. They could have waved their arm and put me out tomorrow if they wanted to. This Goliath is the so-called non-profit ASCE. Yes, I've seen hard times. I've also worked for architects. Nothing has come easy for me and it won't for you or any other engineer either. It's a difficult profession but I believe anyone can make $60,000 / year in it. We just need to put away our stress-strain curves for awhile and focus on the supply and demand curve. It's a free-market system and we have to adapt to it from time to time. Dennis, have you ever tried to make $60,000 / year? If you did, would you be happy? Use this formula: Learn your industry the best that you can. Identify any unmet needs. Fulfill those needs. It's as simple as that. Just be a little open-minded. I take it that you're working mostly for architects. They're worse than attorneys! You get paid, maybe, while they treat you like some second class citizen. Honestly ask yourself, "is there really an unmet need of structural engineers in the residential building market?" Don't take offense, but you're nothing more than a hired gun to come in and smoke your calculator for several hours for little pay. Why so little pay? Because calculator smokers are a dime a dozen. A need that has been over met, driving the price of your services down, down, down. You're right, there's plenty more overseas making the supply even worse. I don't know the structural engineering world very well or I would make some suggestions. I have my own set of problems. But I truly feel that if you spend some time on my idea, you'll come up with something. And yes, this concept has worked for me -- twice. And if you were to take it all away from me today, I'd rise back to the same place. I guarantee it. And Dennis, why should any creditor in this country would write off your mortgage or help you back on your feet once forced into bankruptcy. If they (mortgage co.) were to run into financial straits would you give THEM thousands of dollars? The world doesn't owe you a living. America needs to get off it's butt and do something with itself or those foreign number-crunchers are going to take more than our nickel-ninety-five calculator jobs. It's not surprising that my comment struck a nerve with you. You are just the type of person it was directed to. If you recall, I wrote, "We act as if we are entitled to prosperity and that job satisfaction, including fat salaries, should (or ought to) be guaranteed to us. If we don't get that, we want to hold someone else accountable for our disappointments." YOU, Dennis, are holding someone else accountable for your problems and YOU are typical of the many Americans that have adopted the philosophy of victimology. Indeed, the engineering market is oversupplied and you can complain about it and know in your heart that your right. But your'e going to be unemployed right. So Dennis, I have revealed my sources for my average yearly income of $60,000 and have suggested a way for my fellow engineers to better their existence. I hope this puts you at ease. But even more, I hope you will share with me and your seaoc list, your ideas for future markets for SE's. Something good must evolve from all of this bickering. I'll be more than happy to help. In fact, the wheels are already turning. I'm inclined to survey our readers (very representative of the profession) to find the REAL answer. Perhaps then CE News will have enough amunition to improve things. Best Regards, Terry G Stringer PE CE News, Inc. --- Internet Message Header Follows --- Received: from server1.seaoc.org (bqe.com [18.104.22.168]) by host1.texramp.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05085 for <rlewis(--nospam--at)techteam.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:24:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from key.cyberg8t.com by server1.seaoc.org (NTList 3.02.13) id za018433; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:55:24 -0700 Received: from pdhost15.cyberg8t.com (pdhost27.cyberg8t.com [22.214.171.124]) by key.cyberg8t.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA15490 for <seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdhost15.cyberg8t.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4A97.4FB04340(--nospam--at)pdhost15.cyberg8t.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:52:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC4A97.4FB04340(--nospam--at)pdhost15.cyberg8t.com> From: "Dennis S. Wish PE" <wish(--nospam--at)cyberg8t.com> To: "'seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org'" <seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org> Subject: FW: American Engineers have it good? Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:22:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org Error-To: seaoc-ad(--nospam--at)seaoc.org X-Loop: seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org X-Info: [SEAOC] Owner: seaoc-ad(--nospam--at)seaoc.org X-POP3-Rcpt: seaoc-ad(--nospam--at)seaoc.org X-Sender: seaoc-ad(--nospam--at)seaoc.org Precedence: list X-ListMember: rlewis(--nospam--at)techteam.org [seaoc(--nospam--at)seaoc.org] __________________________________________________ Richard Lewis, P.E. Missionary TECH Team rlewis(--nospam--at)techteam.org The service mission like-minded Christian organizations may turn to for technical assistance and know-how.
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