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I would add to your commentary the following logic process.

As soils and civils (and contractors for that matter) take it
"in the shorts" for protracted debates with Building Officials,
fabricator/installers, peer reviewers and the like, that fails
to create an incentive on the part of Building Officials et al
to REDUCE their redlining activities to a manageable level.

Hence, not only the soils and civils and contractors will be
losing more and more money (and experiencing longer and longer
delays in setting up their next contract), but OWNERS will also
be experiencing these construction delays, which may in fact
cost them FAR MORE than the additional cost of backending their
engineer consultant.

Bottom line, the paperwork associated with permit review will
get longer and longer, favoring design-build, pre-manufacturer,
and good-ol-boy companies, and bringing ruin to the one-off 
custom design sole proprietor consulting engineer. We all lose.
It only takes one project delay like that to kill your clientbase.

As a perfect example, I've just had a permit reviewer at the 
County run me around for two weeks, with two separate complaint
letters numbering over 30 items to address in the plan review...
for a 24' x 36' pole carport!!!!!!!!!! I did the design for $150.

She wants to know grade, species, number, pounds of preservative,
camber, taper, auger hole diameter control, hole bottom setup,
geotechnical basis, basis of nailing and bolting values, basis of 
sheet metal shear values,,,,AND wants me to inspect the carport
when it's built and submit a stamped letter of approval. 

On my nickel! I'd laugh, except it's not getting better, 
it's getting much, much worse. And the forensic hired-guns
and P&C attorneys just love all that extra paperwork.

We are cannon fodder.

At 06:30 AM 8/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Well, we all know Civil and Soils Engineers are whiners!!  But
>seriously, if an approach like this is considered "standard" for
>everyone in a certain business, then I guess that looking around for
>another Civil or Soils Engineer would just yield the same result.
>Another issue to remember is that Soils and Civil Engineer tend to
>contract directly with the Owner, not the Architect.
>But just put yourself in their (owner or architect) situation and try
>and see things from their point of view.  They want to know their cost
>up front, and don't want to be hit up for extras all along the way.  It
>is just common sense.  If you set your contract up so that you are
>asking for extra money for every little thing all along the way, it is
>going to discourage your clients from hiring you again, especially if
>xyz engineering down the freeway a bit provides an equal services, but
>sticks to his up front fee.  Our philosophy is to find out what our
>clients want in an engineering consultant and give it to them.  And this
>issue of hitting the client up for extra services along the way is a
>major issue for many of our clients.  Negotiate hard for an adequate fee
>up front, and then stick to it, only asking for additional fee if there
>is a clear justification.  One of your negotiation points arriving at an
>adequate fee can in fact be that you will not be coming back to them
>with your hand out for more money time and time again.
>HARRISENGR(--nospam--at) wrote:
>> << The Architect does not have any "extra" money to pay you for these
>>  additional charges, unless he takes it out of his fee.  The Owner

>>  doesn't want to be hit up for additional money either.  Both the
>>  Architect and the Owner want to know what  it will cost them
>> up-front. >>
>>     How do the soil and civil engineers get these extra fees ? without
>> being
>> whiners?
>>     ( this question is not just for Lynn ( who has a good point ) ,
>> but
>> anyone who has an opinion )
>>       Tom Harris , SE
>>      Thousand Oaks, CA
Robert Marmaduke PE
POB 28995, Bellingham, WA 98228
360.738.0854 VOX/FAX