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RE: Architects and Human Occupancy

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Before this goes much further I want to put in my two cents worth. First of all, I realize there are quite a few civil engineers capable of doing a good job of structural engineering. Both the UBC and BORPELS allow civil engineers to do structural engineering. However, I think that if civil engineers want to use the title "structural engineer" then they should take (and pass) the damn test!! Although I have pointed out on my previous posts that I do not believe there is enough financial reward to justify taking the exam, I am proud that I took and passed an exam that most could not. Those who have not paid that price should not be able to use the title and, if they have to dance around the phrase "civil engineer doing structural engineering", so be it. Tough. If you don't like it, take the damn test!!

I never did like SEAOC allowing civil engineers becoming full members with voting priveleges. After all, it's the Structural Engineers' Association of California, not the Structural Engineers' and Civil Engineers Providing Structural Engineering Services Association. With regards to the distribution of membership between CEs and SEs, dues are cheap. For 185 bucks, you get a vote. Big deal.

No one should look for my support in blurring the line between CEs doing structural engineering and SEs. On this list serve, we should be focusing on the architects, civil-civils and others anyway.

Bill Allen

-----Original Message-----
From:	Dennis S. Wish PE [SMTP:wish(--nospam--at)]
Sent:	Friday, October 03, 1997 1:42 PM
To:	seaoc(--nospam--at)
Subject:	Re: Architects and Human Occupancy

-----Original Message-----
From: ErnieNSE(--nospam--at) <ErnieNSE(--nospam--at)>
To: seaoc(--nospam--at) <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Architects and Human Occupancy

>We can start by changing SEAOC(seaosc,etc.) to mean Structural
>Association of California. All licensed CE's will be Member, non-licensed
>CE's will be Associate Member, non-CE's will be ?????, etc. And all must be
>practicing Structural Engineering. Let's define Structural Engineering as
>field of Civil Engineering dealing with the structural analysis and design
>any structure. We can add to this definition later.

I agree with you. As members of Structural Engineers Assoc., we seem to be
breaking the rules by the assumption that a member is an SE. I never thought
of that. This has only occured in the last couple of years when CE's were
elevated from associate to full members. The title seems to be misleading.
>If SEAOSC is going to help our cause, they should be the first to support
>position. They could even call for a vote for all members to see if
>supports this position. If they do, then we can start, if not, we're back
>square one.

Would you suggest doing this by the addition of a survey added to monthly
newsletters from each chapter? How would we be sure to get a fair
representation since the numbers returning surveys is generally very low.
Would it not be a fair assumption that all CE's support this position and
all SE's don't even though there are many on both sides that have opposing
views. This would lead to simply looking at the percentage of the paid
membership that is licensed in one area or another.
I spoke with SEAOSC yesterday and the breakdown is as follows. 784 SE's and
514 CE's. That relates to approximately 39.99% or 40% of the licensed
members are CE's - not the majority, but substantial.
Now the big question - how do you create interest in the issue so that each
member SE or CE will have their opinions noted? Like politics, those
responding may need to be considered a reliable sample of the whole
community. I'm not sure that is is fair to either side.

>I'm also wondering what the other list members think of my previous post
>about this issue.

I hope they will respond even if they are undecided!!!!!!!

>If there are enough people who want to be involved in the issue and SEAOSC
>does not want to support it for now, we can start our own committee.

Ernie, I believe we already have.

>Ernie Natividad CE, SE
>Registered Licensed Civil Engineer in California,
>practicing Structural Engineering, with authority
>to use the Title of Structural Engineer