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Re: Re: This is totally inappropriate for this listserve..

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Richard, much of this is purely academic since the truth is yet to be
unveiled. The general consensus is that he is guilty as sin. The other side
of the coin, a woman claims under oath that there was no relationship , yet
is caught on a phone tap (is this ethical?) discussing a relationship about
some "Creep" in public office (without mentioning names) and is now willing
state under protection of immunity that a relationship did exist. It's easy
to lie when you are immune from prosecution.  My opinion is that she is no
longer a credible witness whether the incident occured or not - we will
never really know.
The press is accusing him of having an "emotional relationship" with Monica.
What the hell is an "emotional relationship". Would it be improper for an
engineering employer to shepard a young graduate with special attention to
assure that they get a solid background in engineering. If the apprentice
where to show appreciation by a note, sqeeze of the hand or hug, would we
consider this an "emotional relationship" and improper or take if for what
it was intended - a thank you.  If I were running for public office and
after finding out I won hugged a number of people who worked to get me
elected - and one was captured on tape - would that one be considered
improper or an "emotional relationship".
This brings up an even larger issue in our society . Fathers are afraid to
express their love for their children (or grandchildren) in public places
because our society is so fearful of sexual molesters or abusers that we run
to the protection of the child without understanding the situation. A father
seen holding a child and embracing a child is viewed with caution and
suspicion in our society. An employer who has a female employee is walking a
tightrope of suspicion and is bound to have rumors circulated of impropiety
in the event the woman leaves his office and the door had been closed.
We are fear mongers in this society who are willing to discredit and ruin a
man's life based upon unproven allegations. How many angry ex-wives accuse
their ex-husbands of child abuse in order to prevent visitation rights. If
you don't think this exists then you need to explore this area. Although it
never happened to me, it did happen to my cousin. The accusations were never
proven or substantiated, but after hearing the dreaded words, marked him for
life with suspicion. One the accusation has been made, would allow any
person to be in a room alone with your child? Most would mark him like the
plague for the rest of his life regardless of his innocence.
The media and society today condemn people the same way as they did hundreds
of years ago in the Salem Witch trials. We think with our fears rather than
our intellect. We are prone today to try a human being in the press instead
of under due process of law. His guilt or innocence stems from preconceived
opinions as to the man's character which are stemming from political
concerns of other biased opinons. Accusations alone should not be enough in
any advanced society to condemn an individual - but it does. All discussions
of facts remains inaccurate until proven - if the testmony is true. Human
beings lie under oath every day!
The definition of character covers a wide spectrum. Do you want a pro-lifer
to represent you or do you want pro-choice? Does pro-choice imply mass
murder by doctors with support of government? My point is that there is no
clear and concise definition of character in our society that is unanimously
agreed upon.
What about moral responsibility. Do we agree on this subject. No, again you
can not define morals in terms that apply to every culture in our society.
The slaughter of a cow is not morally correct to some.
The same holds true of ethics. The Japanese culture never considered it
unethical to wine and dine clients in hopes of signing business contracts.
However, it is a practice frowned upon in our society and, in fact, illegal
in some situations.  This is virtually the same as Lobbying. We consider it
ethical, but other cultures don't. In a global ecconomy or society how do we
define these issues? Other cultures employ workers for pennies and global
businesses such as Nike or GM support this. American's feel it is
exploitation representative of the beginning of our industrial era when
children became slaves to factories (read Sinclair Lewis sometime).
Human beings hide their frailties, faults, and are not always honest, moral
or ethical. Mafia hit men may be devote Catholics who wipe away their sins
by acts of confession. Do politicians do the same thing? The fact that
politics can be swayed by money, lobbies, religion, and influence from
multiple sources makes it equally corrupt to those whose ethics don't define
this type of behavior.  How are we represented, buy the needs of the
community that elected the official or by the indiviuals desire to make the
decision what is right for the people who elected him. Why must the
government control campaign contributions to convince polititions that it is
wrong to be bought - even if someone is paying a price for the same things
the people you represent want. The state of Nebraska lobbies for the farmer,
but is it correct to accept additional money to buy favors in order to get
your representative to fight harder for the farmer?
You can not guarantee the character, moral or ethical value of anyone who we
elect in office, work for, employ, become friends with, who sits next to us
in church or we whom we have given birth to . The only one in this world
that I am sure of is myself - period. I take responsibility for my actions
and I am the only one in this world that knows the fiber of my sole and how
I value my relationships with others. I don't expect anyone to vote for me
on what is presented in my "bio" or by my appearance. Therefore, I can only
expect to judge others (as my father would say) on  "the bottom line".  Has
he/she accomplished what we elected him to do. Above this, "Frankly, my
dears, I don't give a damn".

Dennis Wish PE

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Lewis <rlewis(--nospam--at)>
To: seaoc(--nospam--at) <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
Cc: seaoc(--nospam--at) <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: Re: This is totally inappropriate for this listserve..

>seaoc(--nospam--at),Internet writes:
>Personally, what and with whom he does (it) while on his own time and with
>his own equipment is none of my
>concern - let Hilery worry about it. How many congressmen and sentate
>are sleeping with young boys, prostitutes, clerks or simply cheating the
>taxpayer out of millions in special interest or "spiffs" - a lot more
>than I'm sure they would have us believe.
>I think they should get back to business and do what we pay them to do -
>represent us. It's funny that we are "bitching" at our professional
>representatives to listen to us and actually represent the voice of the
>people, and we can't expect the same decency from our voice in congress.
>I think you are missing the main point.  Our anger should not be focused on
>his alleged sexual behavior.  We all know that was wrong, if he really did
>what he is accused of.  But there is a much DEEPER issue here, which we can
>all apply to ourselves as ENGINEERS.  It has to do with CHARACTER.  Is the
>man lying to us?  He has already been caught in many lies before.  If he is
>lying to us now, when can we believe him?  I for one do not know.  He made
>vow to his wife when he married her that she would be the only love of his
>life.  If what is being said about them is true then he lied to her.  Lying
>is a poor character trait that is reflected in other areas of life.  How
>I know that he will fulfill the responsibilities of the office of the
>President, which is to look out for the welfare of the USA, which he vowed
>do twice on inauguration day, if I can't trust him in other areas and he
>can't keep a vow to his wife?  How can I compartmentalize parts of his
>character and trust his actions in one area and not another?  I don't have
>that ability.  Can someone who has share that with me?
>This also goes for congressmen as well, as Dennis has brought into the
>discussion.  We need men and women of good Character and Integrity
>representing us.  The hard part is to find these people and put them in
>office.  I know we do have many of this kind of people today serving us,
>we need to set the standard for those that serve and hold them to it so
>we can TRUST their actions on our behalf.  Idealistic thinking, I know, but
>what I truly want for the greatest nation on earth.
>This can be applied to engineers as well.  We all are bound by engineering
>ethics.  I think every State requires an engineer to acknowledge reading
>in the registration process.  The public demands OUR character to look out
>for their welfare in our design, not just our's or an owner's pocket book.
>We need to be men and women of integrity in all areas of life, for if we
>in one, how can we keep it from spilling over into another.  I for one can
>easily realize my actions in one area of my life and suddenly find myself
>doing it in others.  I want my clients to trust and respect me as an
>engineer, and as a man of integrity.  I don't see how I can separate them.
>I don't want to forget what started this thread, which is the end of the
>Vietnam war.  I was fortunate to be too young to be involved in the war.  I
>count that as a blessing.  I deeply respect those who fought in Vietnam, as
>well as all the other battles our nation has been involved in.  I do not
>to take my freedom for granted.  I know that literally millions of lives
>been lost in battle in the history of our nation so that I today can enjoy
>the freedoms of democracy.  I wish I could thanks those men and women
>personally.  To those veterans and people who served in time of peace, you
>have my deepest appreciation.
>Richard Lewis, P.E.
>Missionary TECH Team
>The service mission like-minded Christian organizations
>may turn to for technical assistance and know-how.
FN:Dennis S. Wish