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Re: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)

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Yes you did, and I apologize for going off the deep end. I don't believe
that their are "ethical standards" in this country. I know that sounds
harsh, but I once took a course at McDonell Douglas in job ethics where we
were encouraged to reduce our on-job stress by following the chain of
command to resolve conflicts we had with our superiors. I felt relieved that
we could finally speak our mind and set about speaking mine to my superior
in the manner stipulated "by the book".
My superior not only made my life miserable two days before I was to take my
CE exam, but he fabricated lies against me. Although I had witnesses to my
innocence, I left the company on bad terms because my superiors boss sided
with him and essentially told me I had no future with the company. He also
told me that the agreements I had with managment for my education and
licensing were no longer of concern to them and that they would no longer
support the agreement.
Where is the ethics here? I'm not unique - backstabing and unethical
practice occurs far more often that is reported or realized. Aerospace used
one sided ethics to get rid of older employees before they could collect
their pensions. I could write a book on the abuse of ethics - and in my
consideration goverment ethics are the worst whether you are speaking of the
president or any member of congress.
But then, I'm on my soapbox again. One note, had I not quite two days after
taking my CE, I would not be in private practice for twelve years and may
have missed out on a good thing. The supervisor died a year later from a
heart attack and his boss was unseated by competition from another state.
Something similar happened to my wife - who is a nurse. She was injured on
the job and had to fight for three years before her employer - a large
hospital in the area - was found liable for her injuries.
The only place I have found where ethics seem to work are in small business.
If your ethics are out to screw over your clients, you won't last long. If
your business ethics are to do the best you can for your clients, you'll
probably never worry about having work.
Sorry, but I don't believe that the concept of ethics is used for any other
purpose but to screw over the subordinates. There is certainly no "national
standard" that is complied with.


-----Original Message-----
From: Germaine, Bob/CVO <bgermain(--nospam--at)>
To: 'seaoc(--nospam--at)' <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 11:24 AM
Subject: RE: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)

>Did my message get scrambled during its delivery?  I think I stated very
>clearly that he was only accused at this time (which he is), but IF he
>is guilty he should be held accountable.  MY POINT was centered on
>ETHICS, not the guilt or innocence of the President.  Please read my
>original post again.
>> ----------
>> From: wish[SMTP:wish(--nospam--at)]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:11 AM
>> To: seaoc(--nospam--at)
>> Subject: Re: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)
>> <<File: Dennis S. Wish.vcf>>
>> Sorry Bob, but I think you missed my point - he has only been accused,
>> not
>> convicted or even substantiated. Rumors and allegations are not
>> sufficient
>> to start an impeachment process. If you want to debate supposition
>> than
>> simply state that and there will be some validity to the rhetoric.
>> However,
>> he has not been proven guilty of any accusation and it is equally
>> irresponsible to try and convict anyone on unsubstantiated claims.
>> Dennis
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Germaine, Bob/CVO <bgermain(--nospam--at)>
>> To: 'seaoc(--nospam--at)' <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
>> Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:46 AM
>> Subject: RE: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)
>> >Dennis,
>> >Your missing the point.  He has not been accused of sleeping with
>> just
>> >another woman off the street, he has been accused of sleeping with a
>> >SUBORDINATE.  That IS an abuse of power.  It seems ironic to me that
>> I
>> >hear some of you engineers with HIGH ethical standards comment that
>> the
>> >Presidents ethics do not matter.  I'm sorry, but if his ethical
>> >standards do not matter than I cannot see why OUR ethical standards
>> >matter (as engineers).  The President has more power over life and
>> death
>> >than we ever will.  I do believe that he should not be condemned
>> until
>> >proven guilty, but if he has abused his power as accused, he MUST go
>> >down, no matter what the cost.
>> >Bob Germaine PE
>> >
>> >> ----------
>> >> From: wish[SMTP:wish(--nospam--at)]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 9:10 PM
>> >> To: seaoc(--nospam--at)
>> >> Subject: Re: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)
>> >>
>> >> <<File: Dennis S. Wish.vcf>>
>> >> The key words of your argument are "there have been three
>> >> affairs/indiscretions that probably occurred." Probably doesn't
>> mean
>> >> diddly
>> >> until it can be proven. My opinion is that if he can sleep with
>> three
>> >> hundred women a night and get up in the morning to do his job than
>> >> it's none
>> >> of my concern - let Hillery worry about it.
>> >> Let me ask you this one. If he were single and sleeping with twenty
>> >> women
>> >> during his first year in office, would you consider him an
>> ineffective
>> >> president? Would you consider him of poor character because he
>> appears
>> >> to be
>> >> promiscuous?
>> >> I can't concern myself with a persons sex life if it doesn't affect
>> >> his job.
>> >> If you found out your employee was having an affair with a married
>> >> person,
>> >> would you fire him for using poor judgement? Would you consider
>> that
>> >> if he
>> >> cheated on his wife and children that he would do lie and cheat on
>> the
>> >> job?
>> >> Can't agree with you on this one. A one of the others stated, who
>> >> believes a
>> >> politian anyway. Do you want to impeach Newt because he divorced
>> his
>> >> wife
>> >> while she was in the hospital with cancer?
>> >> It seems to me the real issue is not morals, ethics or character -
>> >> it's
>> >> politics.
>> >> Dennis Wish PE
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: John Cannon Jones <jcjones(--nospam--at)>
>> >> To: 'seaoc(--nospam--at)' <seaoc(--nospam--at)>
>> >> Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 3:50 PM
>> >> Subject: RE: totally inappropriate... (Damn right)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Several people have said that as long as Clinton gets the job done
>> >> it's ok
>> >> by them.  Right now there have been three affairs/indiscretions
>> that
>> >> probably occurred.  What if that number were 10, 100, 500 ...
>> Where
>> >> is the
>> >> line that changes from his affairs being ok to not ok.  Is there a
>> >> line as
>> >> long as the American pocketbook is relatively full.  That seems to
>> be
>> >> what
>> >> the public is saying.
>> >>
>> >> Whether someone is doing a good or bad job with something, wrong is
>> >> still
>> >> wrong.
>> >>
>> >> John Jones
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now, I am not comparing Mr. Clinton to Mr. Churchill, but only
>> saying
>> >> that
>> >> it is what the man
>> >> accomplishes in office, not who he is doing out of the office, that
>> >> counts
>> >> for me.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
FN:Dennis S. Wish