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Re: Landslide

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Caldwell, Stan wrote:

> >Stan wrote:
> >
> >> If you don't hold yourself out to be a structural engineer, then you
> >> have no business recommending concrete reinforcement!
> Arvel wrote:
> >
> >Well we better tear out all of the road, culverts, water treament facilities
> >and
> >misc. constructs designed by plain jane Civil Engineers.  They have exceed
> >their
> >area of expertise and put in reinforcing steel without passing the SE exam.
> Arvel, this is a sneaky way to divert the subject back to Civil-Civils
> designing structures.  Let's not go there again!  Most of this Listserv
> has previously concluded that they should not be designing structures.
> BTW, I don't consider paving to be structures unless it happens to be
> bridge deck.

It was not my intent to be sneaky.  Besides, I could not have been too obtuse if a
Texan caught on.(GD&R).    However, pavement is a structure.  Try solving a three
layer elastic media problem with a repetitive cyclic load, fatique damage, and
thermal variance, with  non homogenous materials.  That's why empirical and/or
semi-empirical methods are normally used.for design.


> Stan wrote:
> >
> >>  If you promise
> >> >not to practice structural, we'll promise not to practice geotechnical.
> Arvel wrote:
> >
> >Then you won't be asking for a specific number of borings and/or tests on
> >your
> >next project?  You will allow the geotechs to provide you with investigation
> >parameters based on their experience in the area?
> Arvel, this is precisely the way in which my firm practices.  We prefer
> for the Geotech to be hired directly by the Owner whenever possible, and
> we refrain from directing the scope or performance of the Geotech's work
> except to state what types of design criteria we ultimately need to
> receive.  In this way, we leave the responsibility for geotechnical
> engineering right where it belongs, with the Geotech.
> This is not just an academic point.  In the late 1980's, my firm
> designed a two-story precast concrete and CMU institutional project,
> isolated (void space) from the subgrade and supported on belled piers at
> a depth of fifteen feet.  The building has subsequently been
> significantly damaged by foundation movement, and multi-million dollar
> litigation is still dragging on.  There were only two soil borings on
> this project, and they each extended to thirty feet.  As it now turns
> out, competent rock (bearing stratum) exists at about thirty-five feet.
> I am pleased to report that my firm is not a party to this litigation.
> We did not recommend, select, or hire the Geotech who did the work, and
> had no role in determining their scope of work.

Excellent,  and for liability reasons the best way to approach geotechnical
engineering.  In the Dallas area with swelling soils, this is the best way to
approach geotechnical work.  A good geotechnical engineer will scope the project
to meet your design needs.  A better geotechnical engineer will budget the work
proportional to the project and provide you with concrete recommendation with only
generic disclaimers. i.e. site specific, vicinity of borings.

> Arvel, are you saying that there now are some three story buildings in
> Oklahoma?  When did that happen? {;^>}

We stole some from Texas.  Durn things were heavy, must have been all that
reinforcing needed in those no earthquakes, ever, Zone buildings. (:^>>)

>  Don't go getting all upset, I'm
> a P.E. in Oklahoma too.   As you know, it is a long-standing tradition
> for those on either side of the Red River to poke fun at each other.
> Now that Barry Switzer has gone back where he belongs, it is my belief
> that the average IQ in both states has risen significantly!

Ouch! What a foil.  Does Texas always fire or retire coaches that win the

> Arvel wrote:
> >
> >Let's agree to disagress on this issue.
> >
> Arvel, I agree not to practice outside my area of expertise.  Will you
> do the same?

Certainly,  I have and always will.  To do otherwise is to invite disaster.

> Best Regards from South of the River,
> Stan Caldwell, P.E.
> Dallas, Texas
> >*********************************************************************
> >We are born with our eyes closed and our mouths open,
> >and we spend our whole lives trying to reverse that mistake
> >of nature.                                   ... anonymous
> >*********************************************************************