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Re[2]: WOOD AND HOUSES

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     Jose appears to have a strong bias against wood.
     
     Yes, Bill, I would like very much to have Jose come to Asia and see 
     the bamboo houses here which only need some very strategic guying 
     during typhoons of 110 MPH to survive.
     
     We have a 2 storey-family house of 5 generations that has survived 
     average of 19 typhoons a year and 4 major earthquakes of intensity 7 
     (richter) or more. We are located in Seismice Zone 4.
     
     It is purely made of wood and the columns are not even straight to 
     plumb. The only repair that we needed were on the corners of the roof 
     hardest hit by the storm winds. When we decided to make use of 
     commercial plywood, that was the time that we had termites but the 
     rest of the structure had remain intact. I was told that there was no 
     structural engineer that designed it on my great grandmother's heyday.
     
     The only thing going against wood is its flammability. That is 
     something you can anticipate and prevent. Typhoons and earthquake come 
     as they please but our house could speak for itself against them. It 
     may yet outlive me.
     
     Jerome


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: WOOD AND HOUSES
Author:  MIME:bill(--nospam--at)allendesigns.com at INTERNET
Date:    8/27/98 3:00 AM


Jose-
I hope you are enjoying this conversation (essentially) with yourself. The 
answer is simple economics. Most of the countries that use brick, mortar and 
stone for construction materials are where, for the most part, have a labor 
force making about 8,000 pesos per year. The average construction worker in 
the U.S. makes that in a week.
     
If a wood structure is properly designed and maintained, it's life has been 
satisfactory (we don't need houses that stand for 2,000 years).
     
If you ignore economics, I don't see how you can do a very good job at 
engineering.
     
Regards,
Bill Allen
     
P.S.- You should see what can be done with bamboo in Asia.
     
-----Original Message-----
From: Jose Diez [mailto:josediezpe(--nospam--at)hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:08 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: WOOD AND HOUSES
     
     
     
     
>Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:15:16 +1200 (NZST) 
>From: Bruce Shephard <bruce.shephard(--nospam--at)opus.co.nz> 
>To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>Subject: Re: WOOD AND HOUSES
>Reply-To:seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
     
The mechanical engineer likely refered to concrete masonry blocks 
instead of bricks.  Clay is a rare find in Florida (other than in the 
Panhandle).
     
As far as I know, ALL the Roman (and Moslem) inspired building codes, 
rule out the use of wood for permanent structures. For multiple reasons, 
beyond the scope of my contribution. Even in China they preper petrous 
materials over rice by-product materials.
     
Unfortunately, the use of masonry needs special treatment in eatthquake 
prone zones.  Steel can carefully replace masonry, but never wood iun 
Roman inspired Building Codes.
     
     
Have you ever browsed a fire code in a Roman system country??? It is 
only a few pages long, compared to the multiple volumes of NFPA codes in 
the US.
     
Simple. In Roman codes, combustible materials are RARE.
     
Uplift is another word I rarely heard in my practice in Roman countries. 
If you have a roof slab 4" (100 mm) thick that is 48+ PSF. The net 
uplift under extreme winds for low rise buildings in the Caribbean area, 
is not much more than 48 PSF.
     
For a high-rise 32 stories for instance, it can reach 300 PSF!!!! But an 
8" (200 mm)  slab provides a self weight of 96 PSF. The net uplift is 
around 200 PSF. You just supply steel to account for it.
     
One of my main reasons to move from Canada to the US, was that nearly 
every affordable building was built out of wood. Today I can afford to 
live in a concrete hi-rise structure.  I love noise,  carbon (ollin for 
those who understand spanish) and people.  I am really tired of living 
among cows, wood, and having to travel to downtown for work. Just 
because after 1965, the americans decided to abandon urban life!
     
I AM VERY URBAN! And proud of it. Have you ever wondered why the roman 
coliseum is still there? Or perhaps the house where Pilatus was born 
more than 2000 years ago is still there?? Many other important buildings 
have lasted2 milleniums or close to it, just because they were not built 
in wood. By the way, some ancient roof structures were made out of wood. 
How come most of these ancient roofs have little or no leaks??  Is the 
english-american system of bio-degradable materials any better than the 
Roman system??? NO!
     
Jose Diez P.E.  FL.
     
     
     
>I reply to the posting:
>--------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:41:22 -0700
>> From: Juan Enrique Justo <jjusto(--nospam--at)copime.org.ar> 
>> Subject: WOOD AND HOUSES
>> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>
>
>> The several posts (and counter posts) I read about the use of wood 
in=
>
>> houses construction moved me to ask you what follows.
>> Although I=92m mechanical engineer, I do love wood, and my hobby is 
>> woodworking.
>
>Wood is a beautiful material, especially for furniture and interior 
>finishes.  It is also a good construction material as slender 
sections,=
> glu-
>laminated sections, and in veneer sheet forms.  It is also the basis 
of=
>
>various fibreboards.  It requires special design considerations as 
expe=
>cted
>for a material comprising natural fibres formed as a moist composite. 
=
>
>Engineering skills are required either directly or in formulating non- 
>specific design criteria.
>
>> But I am not convinced -so far- about the benefits of house 
construct=
>ion
>> from wood which seems to be the rule in USA. Here in south america 
we=
>
>> still prefer bricks.
>
>Are wood (or timber as we refer to the material in New Zealand), 
suppli=
>es
>readily available and economic for house construction in South America 
=
>
>though?
>
>> I was in Houston for 18 month, and I had the chance to see the 
progre=
>ssive
>> construction of a condo nearby my place. I saw those tiny (o let=92s 
=
>say
>> slender) timber pieces to be put together to form the structure of 
wa=
>lls,
>> frames, beams, etc.
>
>The slender timber pieces are joined by nails and fixings, taken 
togeth=
>er
>with sheet lining and cladding, that make up structural elements that 
i=
>n
>turn make up a house that is weather tight, load carrying and able to 
r=
>esist
>earthquake and wind forces.  The structural performance essence is in 
t=
>he
>energy absorbtion and ductile characteristics of the fixing systems 
tha=
>t are
>designed to deform before the wood elements become over stressed. 
>
>> I also was told (pls tell me if this is true) that
>> these slim timbers came from very fast growing trees, specially 
devel=
>oped
>> for construction.
>
>Yes,  in New Zealand, the land of fertile soils, sunshine and rain, 
thi=
>s is
>very true.
>
>> I also was told that unless termites choose the same
>> home as you do, this full wood houses can last up to 30 years. 
>
>NZ is fortunate not to have termites.  Wood is treated to resist other 
=
>
>insect infestations, and chemically treated for wet and soil contact 
>conditions.
>
>> All this introduction is just to ask to you fellows (ladys included) 
=
>why
>> this wood based system was chosen. Are there some kind of historical 
=
>
>> reasons?, or may be old traditions? A friend that lives in Tampa Fl, 
=
>made
>> his house to be built up in our traditional way (bricks and more 
bric=
>ks)
>> and he had to pay 30% more that a fully wood house. So, Is it 
because=
> of
>> money?
>
>Partly historical tradition and partly money or economics in NZ. 
Europ=
>ean
>settlers arriving in the early 19th century and developing farmlands 
fo=
>und
>vast native forests and so built in wood.  When gold was discovered 
man=
>y
>towns and cities were constructed in masonry brick.  There are good 
cla=
>y
>deposits for brick making.  Strong earthquakes in the late 1800's and 
e=
>arly
>1900's clearly showed that wood buildings performed better than the 
bri=
>ck
>ones,  so -----
>
>Currently most single family houses are constructed in wood.  They are 
=
>
>painted (for durability) in many colours and this sets the NZ urban 
cit=
>y
>scape apart from many overseas,   even more colourful than the west 
coa=
>st
>US.  We have both light weight (steel/iron) roofs (again in many 
colour=
>s)and
>heavy weight roofs (clay or concrete tiles).  We also use a masonry 
ven=
>eer
>to wood framed, with interior linings, houses so that they look like 
>masonry.
>
>Many 2, 3 and 4 storey commercial buildings are constructed in wood, 
>particularly those more than 60 years old in smaller towns.  NZ also 
ha=
>s
>good natural materials available for reinforced concrete construction 
a=
>nd
>this is the common form for larger buildings.  Light steel sections 
are=
> used
>for industrial buildings.  Larger steel sections have to be imported, 
s=
>o
>only the highest commercial buildings feature steel frames. 
>
>Our houses and buildings designed to current standards are expected to 
=
>have
>good earthquake and wind resistant performance.  Earthquake as good as 
=
>for
>California.  Wind to hurricane levels! 
>
>> By the way, how about New Zealand? What do you use there? 
>
>As above.
>
>>
>> Finally, I would like to tell you that this query is just for the 
sak=
>e of
>> knowledge.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>
>There's a short history of wood construction in New Zealand.  I hope 
th=
>at it
>is of general interest.
>
>Cheers,  Bruce S
>
>-------------------------------------------------- 
>Bruce Shephard, Principal Consultant Seismic Risk 
>Opus International Consultants, New Zealand
>DD Telephone +64 4 4717597,  Fax +64 4 4711397 
>Email bruce.shephard(--nospam--at)opus.co.nz
>-------------------------------------------------- 
>
>
>
     
     
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
     
     
     
     
     
     
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\gutter0 \defformat\sectd \pard\plain {\plain \f0 \cb7 \cf0 \cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 Jose appears to have a strong bias against wood.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 Yes, Bill, I would like very much to have Jose come to Asia and see \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 the bamboo houses here which only need some very strategic guying \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 during typhoons of 110 MPH to survive.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 We have a 2 storey-family house of 5 generations that has survived \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 average of 19 typhoons a year and 4 major earthquakes of intensity 7 \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 (richter) or more. We are located in Seismice Zone 4.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 It is purely made of wood and the columns are not even straight to \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 plumb. The only repair that we needed were on the corners of the roof \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 hardest hit by the storm winds. When we decided to make use of \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 commercial plywood, that was the time that we had termites but the \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 rest of the structure had remain intact. I was told that there was no \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 structural engineer that designed it on my great grandmother's heyday.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 The only thing going against wood is its flammability. That is \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 something you can anticipate and prevent. Typhoons and earthquake come \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 as they please but our house could speak for itself against them. It \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 may yet outlive me.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \cb1 \cf14 Jerome\
\
\
\cb7 \cf0 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________\
\cb7 \cf0 Subject: RE: WOOD AND HOUSES\
\cb7 \cf0 Author:  MIME:bill(--nospam--at)allendesigns.com at INTERNET\
\cb7 \cf0 Date:    8/27/98 3:00 AM\
\
\
\cb7 \cf0 Jose-\
\cb7 \cf0 I hope you are enjoying this conversation (essentially) with yourself. The \
\cb7 \cf0 answer is simple economics. Most of the countries that use brick, mortar and \
\cb7 \cf0 stone for construction materials are where, for the most part, have a labor \
\cb7 \cf0 force making about 8,000 pesos per year. The average construction worker in \
\cb7 \cf0 the U.S. makes that in a week.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 If a wood structure is properly designed and maintained, it's life has been \
\cb7 \cf0 satisfactory (we don't need houses that stand for 2,000 years).\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 If you ignore economics, I don't see how you can do a very good job at \
\cb7 \cf0 engineering.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 Regards,\
\cb7 \cf0 Bill Allen\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 P.S.- You should see what can be done with bamboo in Asia.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 -----Original Message-----\
\cb7 \cf0 From: Jose Diez [mailto:josediezpe(--nospam--at)hotmail.com] \
\cb7 \cf0 Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:08 PM\
\cb7 \cf0 To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org\
\cb7 \cf0 Subject: Re: WOOD AND HOUSES\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 >Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:15:16 +1200 (NZST) \
\cb7 \cf0 >From: Bruce Shephard <bruce.shephard(--nospam--at)opus.co.nz> \
\cb7 \cf0 >To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org\
\cb7 \cf0 >Subject: Re: WOOD AND HOUSES\
\cb7 \cf0 >Reply-To:seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 The mechanical engineer likely refered to concrete masonry blocks \
\cb7 \cf0 instead of bricks.  Clay is a rare find in Florida (other than in the \
\cb7 \cf0 Panhandle).\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 As far as I know, ALL the Roman (and Moslem) inspired building codes, \
\cb7 \cf0 rule out the use of wood for permanent structures. For multiple reasons, \
\cb7 \cf0 beyond the scope of my contribution. Even in China they preper petrous \
\cb7 \cf0 materials over rice by-product materials.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 Unfortunately, the use of masonry needs special treatment in eatthquake \
\cb7 \cf0 prone zones.  Steel can carefully replace masonry, but never wood iun \
\cb7 \cf0 Roman inspired Building Codes.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 Have you ever browsed a fire code in a Roman system country??? It is \
\cb7 \cf0 only a few pages long, compared to the multiple volumes of NFPA codes in \
\cb7 \cf0 the US.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 Simple. In Roman codes, combustible materials are RARE.\
\cb7 \cf0      \
\cb7 \cf0 Uplift is another word I rarely heard in my practice in Roman countries. \
\cb7 \cf0 If you have a roof slab 4" (100 mm) thick that is 48+ PSF. The net \
\cb7 \cf0 uplift under extreme winds for low rise buildings in the Caribbean area, \
\cb7 \cf0 is not much more than 48 PSF.\cb7 \cf0  form\cb7 \cf0 ed as a moist composite. \
=\
>\
>Engineering skills are required either \cb7 \cf0 directly or in formulating non- \
>specific design criteria.\
>\
>> Bu\cb7 \cf0 t I am not convinced -so far- about the benefits of hous\cb7 \cf0 e \
c\cb7 \cf0 onstruct=\
>ion\
>> from wood which seems to be the rule in USA. Here \cb7 \cf0 in south america \
we=\
>\
>> still prefer bricks.\
>\
>Are wood (or ti\cb7 \cf0 mber as we refer to the material in New Zealand), \
suppli=\
>es\
>readi\cb7 \cf0 ly available and economic for house construction in South America \
=\
\cb7 \cf0 >\
>though?\
>\
>> I was in Houston for 18 month, and I had the ch\cb7 \cf0 ance to see the \
progre=\
>ssive\
>> construction of a condo ne\cb7 \cf0 arby \cb7 \cf0 my place. I saw those tiny (o let=92s \
=\
>say\
>> slender) timber pie\cb7 \cf0 ces to be put together to form the structure of \
wa=\
>lls,\
>> fram\cb7 \cf0 es, beams, etc.\
>\
>The slender timber pieces are joined by nails and fi\cb7 \cf0 xings, taken \
togeth=\
>er\
>with sheet lining and cladding, that make u\cb7 \cf0 p structural elements that \
i=\
>n\
>turn make up a house that is weathe\cb7 \cf0 r tight, load carrying and able to \
r=\
>esist\
>earthquake and wind f\cb7 \cf0 orces.  The structural performance essence is in \
t=\
>he\
>energy abso\cb7 \cf0 rbtion and ductile \cb7 \cf0 chara\cb7 \cf0 cteristics of the f\cb7 \cf0 ixing\cb7 \cf0  syst\cb7 \cf0 ems \
\cb7 \cf0 tha=\
>t are\
>designed \cb7 \cf0 to deform before the wood element\cb7 \cf0 s become over stressed. \
>\
>> I also w\cb7 \cf0 as told (pls tell me if this is true) that\
>> thes\cb7 \cf0 e slim timbers came from ve\cb7 \cf0 ry fast growing trees, s\cb7 \cf0 p\cb7 \cf0 e\cb7 \cf0 cially \
devel=\
>oped\
>> for construction.\
>\
>Yes,  in New Zealand\cb7 \cf0 , t\cb7 \cf0 h\cb7 \cf0 e land of fertile soils, sunshine and rain, \
thi=\
>s i\cb7 \cf0 s\
>very true.\
>\
>> I also was told that unless termites choose the s\cb7 \cf0 ame\
>> home as\cb7 \cf0  \cb7 \cf0 you do, this full wood houses can last up to 30 years. \
>\
>NZ is fo\cb7 \cf0 rtunate not to have termites.  Wood is treated to resist other \
\cb7 \cf0 =\
>\
>ins\cb7 \cf0 ect in\cb7 \cf0 festations, and chemically treated for wet and soil contact \
>conditi\cb7 \cf0 ons\cb7 \cf0 .\
\cb7 \cf0 >\
>> All this introduction is just to ask to you fellows (ladys inc\cb7 \cf0 luded\cb7 \cf0 ) \
=\
\cb7 \cf0 >why\
>> this wood based system was chosen. Are there some kind of hist\cb7 \cf0 o\cb7 \cf0 r\cb7 \cf0 ical \
=\
>\
>> reasons?, or may be old traditions? A friend that lives \cb7 \cf0 in Tampa Fl, \
=\
>made\
>\cb7 \cf0 >\cb7 \cf0  his house to be built up in our traditional way (bricks and mo\cb7 \cf0 re \
bric=\
\cb7 \cf0 >ks)\
\cb7 \cf0 >> and he had to pay 30% more that a fully wood house. So, Is it \
bec\cb7 \cf0 aus\cb7 \cf0 e\cb7 \cf0 =\
> of\
>> money?\
>\
\cb7 \cf0 >\cb7 \cf0 Partly historical tradition and partly money or economics in NZ. \
\cb7 \cf0 Europ=\
\cb7 \cf0 >ea\cb7 \cf0 n\
>settlers arriving in the early 19th century and developing farmlands\cb7 \cf0  \
\cb7 \cf0 f\cb7 \cf0 o=\
>und\
\cb7 \cf0 >\cb7 \cf0 vast native forests and so built in wood.  When gold was discovere\cb7 \cf0 d \
man\cb7 \cf0 =\
>y\
\cb7 \cf0 >towns and cities were constructed in masonry brick.  There are good \
c\cb7 \cf0 l\cb7 \cf0 a=\
\cb7 \cf0 >y\
>deposits for brick making.  Strong earthquakes in the late 1800's\cb7 \cf0  an\cb7 \cf0 d \
e\cb7 \cf0 =\
>arly\
>1900's clea\cb7 \cf0 r\cb7 \cf0 ly showed that wood buildings performed better than the \
bri=\
>c\cb7 \cf0 k\
>one\cb7 \cf0 s, \cb7 \cf0  so -----\
>\
>Currently most single family houses are constructed in w\cb7 \cf0 oo\cb7 \cf0 d.\cb7 \cf0   They are \
=\
>\
>painted (for durability) in many colours and this s\cb7 \cf0 et\cb7 \cf0 s the \cb7 \cf0 NZ urban \
cit=\
>y\
>scape apart from many overseas,   even more colou\cb7 \cf0 rf\cb7 \cf0 ul \cb7 \cf0 than the west \
coa=\
>st\
>US.  We have both light weight (steel/iro\cb7 \cf0 n) r\cb7 \cf0 oofs (\cb7 \cf0  you \
>*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted \
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>\
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\par }},