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Re: Plan check submittals and shop drawings

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At 11:51 PM 10/6/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Not all truss manufacturers are alike. That's why this last one you have
>to be the exception to the usual way you have been doing it.
>By the way, the roof trusses I'm talking about are the open-web steel
>joist,designed and fabricated  based on the standard  specifications of the
>Steel Joist Institute for open web steel joist. These are shown on UBC1994,
>Chap.22, Div.III................
>In a book titled "Designing with steel joist, joist girders and steel
decks by
>Fisher, West and Van de Pas, it says.........."The establishment of the
>Standard Specifications for Steel Joists allowed building designers to
>rather than design a structural component of the building frame. The
>acceptance of the Standard Specification by the building codes and building
>officials, allow the use of steel joists in buildings without the need to
>reconfirm by engineering design the sizes and materials used in joist
>conforming to standard designations for given loads and span."...............
>In a Steel Joist and Joist Girder catalogue by VULCRAFT, they claim that
>they....."do not accept the responsibility as the design professional of
>record for any structure......they accept the delegation of the engineering
>responsibility only for the products it manufactures............they provide
>engineering for the  design of its products and do not displace the need on
>any project for a design professional of record...........
>Any plan checker  or truss engineer out there  who can comment on these?
>Ernie Natividad
>I'm the open web steel bar joist supplier in question.  Karim followed the
existing practice of selecting joist sizes for uniform dead & live loads as
well as presenting siesmic axial loads, net uplift, deflection
criteria,etc.  As is common practice, Karim sized the joists usiong the
"load per foot" designation system to allow for accurate design for
seismic, point loads (provided by him), net uplift, etc.  He presented a
fine set of plans.  As is the practice, he also provided instructions to
provide for additional conditions that would appear later in the
construction phase.  Most commonly, the weight of the sprinkler mains and
the associated seismic brace loads.  By the time a contract (which
specifically excluded stamping the joist erection plan) was awarded and the
detailing process began, the missing information was available to both us
and the EOR.  We basically copy the EOR framing plans and details then
upgrade for the specific items referenced by him.  These plans are for his
review for compliance.  Obviously that compliance review includes his check
that we have "finished" his design accordingly.  Final calcs reflecting
both the joists he selected as well as the upgraded trusses approved by him
are then prepared under our seal.  The plan checker rightfully states that
the first permit set issued to him does not have all of the required info
and thusly requires further submittal.  His statement has been that the
drawings showing "all" of the design info/ joist sizes need to be stamped.
Several experienced engineers have copied our final info and identification
marks onto their own plans and submitted to the plan checker with our
calcs.  Other engineers have put their seal onto out plan with the
disclaimer that it is for compliance with the original contract drawings.
Karim posted this after a discussion with me to get the feel of the
engineering community on several of the issues.  Does a product supplier
finishing the design for the engineer of record and submitting for the EOR
approval constitute engineering design work?  Possibly the joist
manufacturer should not accept plans that the EOR has left uncompleted?
Does the assigning of identification marks to the plans prepared by the
engineer of record constitue engineering?

Really appreciate the comments by all of the respondees and hope this helps
to clarify the question.

Gary Tiedgen