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Re: Re; Plan check submittals and shop drawings

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Bill Allen, S.E. Wrote:

<DON'T DO IT!

Are you saying that do not seal the truss drawing in an approval context,
even if it was sealed by the engineer who designed it?  
I too, feel more comfortable with using the shop drawing review stamps, but
in light of fairness to everyone involved I have no problem with doing
exactly what Mr. Charles Greenlaw wrote with respect to this issue. 
 
 <I believe the EOR's approval, if offered, takes the form of an
engineering
<report that reports a judgment or "finding" on engineering by others that
<the EOR reviewed. The EOR may not substitute his or her signature and seal
<for that of the engineer exercising responsible charge of that design
<finishing engineering, but may ADD his own, pursuant to "reporting" his
<approval. The PE Act is silent about approvals being required, or signing
<and sealing them; the originator's signature and seal satisfies the
<requirements of the Act. (Only one engineer in responsible charge of a
<particular element of design is envisioned in the PE Act.) Note also that
<UBC sec 106.3.4.2 does not require the reviewing EOR to sign and seal the
<"notation" forwarded to the building official that indicates completion of
<review and a finding of general conformance.

I don't do too much school work ( not that I don't like to), but I just
happen to have a school job with DSA which finally got permitted last
month. The plan checker who, by the way, did a very fine job of reviewing
the 
plans, told me that DSA does not accept deferred submittals. So,
therefore this kind of problem of delegation of engineering responsibility
between the EOR and the fabricators would not likely to come about.
On the other hand DSA requires that all drawings, Architectural, SE, CE,
EE, ME, LS, etc., etc....be sealed by the architect. When I first learned
about this I was extremely surprised, but I was more interested in getting
the permit issued, so I didn't want to make any big issue. 
But the architect did. 
This was his first DSA job and he was very surprised . So the architect
refused to seal
the consultants drawings. His E&O insurer would not approve of his sealing
the consultants drawings either and they threatened to cancel his
insurance.
 (part 1, Title 24, C.C.R.)  section 4-316(c) Assumption of responsibility 
which states" that responsible architect or engineer shall manually sign
all original tracings or all copies of plans submitted for approval to
indicate his or her assumption of
responsibility.........................................." for the entire
project, in my opinion,  may be in
conflict with B&P Code and PE act.

Karim Hosseinzadeh, SE 
          
----------
> From: Bill Allen, S.E. <Bill(--nospam--at)AllenDesigns.com>
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Re; Plan check submittals and shop drawings
> Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:25 AM
> 
> I believe you are mistaken about this point and I would appreciate Jack
> Bruce to jump in and clear up any misconceptions on this issue. I believe
> DSA recognizes that their desire to have the SER be responsible for the
> entire project by stamping and signing drawings and engineering produced
by
> others is in direct conflict with the California B&P code whereby an
> engineer cannot stamp and sign work prepared by others unless that
engineer
> has responsible charge over that work. At one time, to solve this
problem,
> DSA published a one or two sentence directive indicating that the SER has
> reviewed the drawings prepared by others etc. etc. from which a stamp can
be
> made and the SER can place this stamp on the drawings.
> 
> Outside of that, the only stamp I would place on someone else's drawings
is
> my shop drawing review stamp. Placing your engineer's stamp on someone
> else's drawing for which you did not have responsible charge is in
violation
> of California's B&P code and, by doing so, would make you guilty of
aiding
> and abetting an unlicensed person to perform engineering services without
a
> license.
> 
> DON'T DO IT!
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Allen
> 
> P.S.-It would be nice if DSA could offer this document so that SEAOC
could
> put it on its website.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Drew A. Norman, S.E. [mailto:DNormanSE(--nospam--at)email.msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 8:50 AM
> To: SEAINT List Service
> Subject: Re; Plan check submittals and shop drawings
> 
> <BIG snip>
> 
> Lastly, and perhaps to the surprise of anyone who reads this far, I think
> Mr. Sprague is WRONG when he says he, "... would not seal the
manufacturer's
> drawings."  In the end, the EOR has primary responsibility to the public
and
> his client, and some building officials (e.g., DSA, OSHPD and, as of
> recently, I believe LACBD) will require Mr. Hosseinzadeh's seal and
> signature on ALL PARTS of the documents as a reflection of his acceptance
of
> that responsibility.  In my practice I would require Mr. Tiedgen to sign
the
> portions of the design drawings he prepared.  Once he had done so, and
once
> I had satisfied myself as to the consistency of design assumptions and
the
> completeness of the detailing, I would COUNTERSIGN the documents as EOR
with
> appropriate qualifications indicating the scope of my review as EOR and
> recording the fact that responsibility for the design of the trusses
> themselves remains with Mr. Tiedgen.
> 
> Thanks for listening.
> 
> Drew Norman, S.E.
> Drew A. Norman and Associates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>