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RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

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Let me answer your first question. I would purchase the $2,000.00 software
if it was conceived and developed outside the United States. I would
purchase neither if the software was developed in the United States and
moved to another country and marketed at or near the same price as it sold
for in the US while the diverse in cost and sales resulted in more profits
at the expense of somebody's livelihood. When was the last time you saw a
product sold in the United States at a significantly reduced rate benefiting
from foreign labor. Certainly not in clothing (Reeboks Nike etc), not in
Automobiles - not in the cost electronics that are developed in Japan and
assembled in Taiwan - of most products. We are not alone in this mentality
of corporate greed and this is what drives the global economy.
You benefit from the process but only as long as your labor rate does not
rise sufficiently to be challenged by another country's lower labor rate.

Aswin, who do you think really benefits by the savings in labor cost? I
believe that lower manufacturing costs represent higher profits which are
passed to stock-holders not the buying public. There may be examples where
the buyer benefits, but I believe that the abuse outweighs the benefits.

You do me an injustice to imply that I am prejudiced against other
nationalities, greedy or selfish because I wish to protect the assets that
my I have earned for my immediate family. You consider me selfish to want to
protect my family's opportunities to work and afford what Americans consider
their dream - their own home. You are asking me to sacrifice my livelihood
so that I can be a humanitarian and help others. If I were wealthy, I would
gladly be charitable. As many have surmised from our thread on fee's, I earn
a good deal less then most due to local competition. I think you ask to much
to expect me to sacrifice everything I worked to achieve for the workers in
another country.

I will support you if and only if you demand the same pay scales that
Americans demand. If you believe that American (International) companies
will move their plants to another country that has the same labor rate as
the US, then I have nothing to argue with, the better country wins in fair
competition. Would you reduce your income 50% and take the chance of losing
your business or ability to work because of unfair labor cost competition?

I understand who is reading this and the fact that it is distributed in many
other countries - personally, I helped establish this list and support a
global engineering community.

I thought that I made myself clear that I can't support an unbalanced
economic system that requires me or any member of my family to give up
income and jeopardize any personal assets that we have worked so hard to
attain. In my eyes, this is akin to having my livelihood stolen from me and
then have those who benefit from it expect me to wish them well. I suggest
you read some of the works of Michael Moore who grew up in a steel town in
the Midwest (I'm sorry but I can't remember the name of the town)where the
residence went from middle income to poverty overnight. Had I known years
before that I would be asked to make this sacrifice, I might have planned
I resent being made to feel like a racist simply because I chose not to
support the rest of the world at my expense.
This is not a position that you or any culture has forced upon me. This has
been decided by our politicians with the inducement of American
(international) industry. My complaint is with these International Companies
who lay off workers and take manufacturing into other countries. They are
not doing this to help you, they are doing this to maximize their profits.
Once your people become accustom to a better standard of living and your
labor rates rise, do you believe that the companies who hired your people
will remain loyal or will they can go to another underdeveloped region and
take advantage of the "temporarily" lower labor cost? You will end up being
in the same economic position we find ourselves now. The difference is that
now two countries have been brought down to help an International
Corporation maintain it's annual prediction of profits for it's investors.

It's easy to be supportive of the Global economy when you are giving nothing
up and only have something to gain. Maria, suggested that not only was the
income received from the US good, but that she or her family was able to
save a sufficient amount to put her through college. This exemplifies the
vast difference in standard of living between the two countries. Comparable
salaries in this country would rarely allow a family to put away enough
money each year to pay for a college education for their children - this
takes sacrifice and in most cases requires supplemental loans and grants to
I taught a class of High School students today who will be learning
construction skills and hope to become laborers. When I asked why they did
not want to go on to college and learn a profession, the most common answer
was that they could not afford it. Therefore, they wanted to work
construction while they worked their way through school.

I apologize to you if I have offended you or anyone. My comments are my own
and are not intended to demean or criticize any nationality or culture. I am
criticizing an economic principal that I do not agree with. I hope that you
will understand this. There is no reason to mistake political or economic
ideology with a prejudice against any person, race, nationality or religion.
I don't believe such an accusation or implication is fitting of educated

Dennis S. Wish PE

-----Original Message-----
From: Aswin Rangaswamy [mailto:aswin(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:53 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)


Just one question: Would you pay  (a) $20,000 for a structural engineering
software that was fully developed in the US and thus help you grandchildren
or  (b) pay $2,000 for the same software that was produced in other parts of
the world.  Well this is a trickyquestion.  If you said yes to (a) then I am
sure you would go bankrupt as you cannot make money out of it.  But if you
said yes to (b), which is what any normal small engineering firm would do,
then you should feel proud that you had helped people in other parts of the
world and also helping yourself.

Looks like there seems to be a lot of bias and selfishness among some of the
members residing in the U.S.  Lets not forget that this mail server is being
read all over the world.

Most of the things in this country (US) is from all over the world.  This
country also boasts that it is a country of immigrants.  If you looks around
immigrants have helped shape the country.  Things in the US is highly
dependent on the global economy.

Do you think that you would be able to survive in this country with the help
from others - By contracting things outside the US, we are giving the people
in other countries a chance to survive.  Have you ever imagined how you
could help bring smiles.  Lets not just worry about this country but the
world as a whole.

Many of the engineering and CAD software are being developed in India.  I
have heard that Intergraph has a big establishment there.  WOULD NOT LIKE TO
HAVE YOUR DRAFTER IN INDIA?  At the end of the day you finish your design,
then just e-mail him the sketches.  Since India is on the other side of the
world, they wake up when you go to sleep.  By your morning you have your
drawings ready.  SO IN REALITY YOU HAVE A 24 HOURS WORKING DAY.  I know
quite a few people who do that.

What we need to stop in reality is the higher management walking out with
the major share of the cake!!!

I don?t think we are being unfair to anyone but to ourself.  I hope this
does not create a flame.



From: "Dennis S. Wish PE" <wish(--nospam--at)>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)>
Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

Sam, is this a good thing or do you see it simply as a potential fact of
I don't agree with the idea of lowest labor maximum profit when it has the
potential to destroy our economy.

Let me pose this question - when our labor rates are forced in half or more
in order to compete against overseas labor, will your bank or mine reduce
the principle on our mortgage to compensate? I don't think they will.

We have already lost much of the manufacturing base in this country in order
to satisfy stock investors and maintain maximum corporate profits. Are we
suppose to allow our service industries to follow suite or do we try and
protect our markets.

We had a thread that suggested my rates were much lower than my competition
in other geographical area's. How will our community react when my rates are
five times higher than those in India or other low labor counties?

I don't want to be unfair, but I need to protect my family and the future of
my grand-children.

Dennis S. Wish PE