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RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

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-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Allen, S.E. [mailto:Bill(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 11:41 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

Yes, Dennis, to confirm, my remark was intended as polite fun. No offense

<dennis> I took it as such.

To answer your hypothetical questions:

If I had to start competing with a fee lower than the effort and risk and
there is NOTHING I can do to become competitive and maintain the lifestyle I
have chosen, then I have a choice: new lifestyle or new profession. What's
so hard about that? Please don't expect the Feds to make that decision for

<Dennis> You are putting words into my mouth on this. I never suggested that
the answer was Fed controls - the Feds put us in this position by approving
GATT and NAFTA. Only the majority voice can correct this. The last place I
would expect help is Washington DC.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with making a profit (by anyone, privateer or
publicly traded corporation). Please don't make "profit" sound like a dirty

<Dennis> Bill, we just had a thread where engineers believed that those of
us who did not bill at or close to 1% to 2% of construction cost were
considered helping to force down the income level of our profession.
Personally, I see competiton at less than 50% of my fee to be a much greater
threat to this profession.

Look, the field of economics is WAY over my head, but I understand that
wealth is not like water (i.e., a finite amount, never to change). If the
standard of living in countries like Mexico, China and India improve, they
will be able to afford goods and services provided by the U.S. Money comes
in and people want to build new state-of-the-art football stadiums. We get
to design them. So what if the CAD work is actually done in Mexico, China,
Indonesia or India?

<dennis> I think I answered this in my other posts.

The advent of the cotton gin and the assembly line initially put the economy
in chaos. We once (before 1972) had the US Dollar tied to the gold standard
based on the amount of gold in Ft. Knox. If this were still true, we would
now be TOTALLY out of the global market. Small potatoes.

<dennis> Being tied to a gold standard may have made this "Global Ecconomy"
idea actually work. After WWII either Roosevelt or Truman (I don't remember
which one accomplished this) adjusted the ecconomic levels in the US to be
more in line with other countries. This maintained personal debt, but
prevented the possiblity of recession. This was suggested in the 80's when
interest rates rose to over 20% and inflation was out of hand - it was never
This adjustment would place us on a level field and would allow people from
all over the world to compete more effectivly without as great a sacrifice.
There would be less incentive to move manufacturing to other countries, but
American products would be more affordable to those who earn less. I believe
this was a good thing. I also believe that if we really want global
competition we should not expect middle income Americans to pay the price
while higher income investors in International Corporations benifit.

If you don't believe an open market, free enterprise and competition is
good, maybe you should take your practice somewhere where you don't have to
worry about such things. Maybe some of your international colleagues here on
the 'Net would like to trade places with you.

<dennis> This is an unfair personal attack, and rather childish. I'm
entitled to my opinions and belief's whether they fit with your thinking or
not. You don't have to read my comments - do what you did some months ago -
filter me to your trash bin. I'd be much more satisfied with not hearing
from you than being subjected to personal attacks.
As far as your personal attack - I won't dignify your comment with any
further rhetoric nor will I respond to you in the same explitive's that you
once sent me.

One thing that is constant is change. Get used to it. Above all, we don't
need a protectionist federal government telling us how to make a living.

<dennis> You are doing exactly what you accused me of doing and I won't
insult you with the same response you sent me. I never suggested government
intervention - you need to read rather than skim my posts looking for only
the words you want to bias me with.

Bill Allen

Not likely,

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis S. Wish PE [mailto:wish(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 10:17 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

I know this was meant to be taken in polite fun, but consider this. What if
your area suddenly turned up with engineers who could make a decent living
charging what I do. What happens to your standard of living when your fees
begin to drop. In my case I earn more than my competition in this area -not
less. Now consider if your local competition started to send their work
overseas at $5.00 per hour in labor to design. How will you react if, rather
than 2% of the construction cost, you suddenly are competing at 0.02% of the
construction cost.
This is potentially a serious problem. The EOR remains local so Observation
and on-site coordination is not done from overseas, but locally as it
should. The EOR, who is local, retains control of the design and will not
violate any regulations since he stay in responsible charge.
I don't see this as a threat if the engineering company is a small
individual owned or closed corporation. But if the company is publicly
traded, look-out. The pressure to maintain profit would be enough incentive
to drive labor out of this country.


-----Original Message-----
From: AnandNene(--nospam--at) [mailto:AnandNene(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:49 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

In a message dated 11/4/98 10:07:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Bill(--nospam--at) writes:

> Don't worry, Dennis, if your previous discussion regarding fees is any
>  indication, nobody is going to steal your work :o).

Well said Bill!

Anand Nene