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Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

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I am very much in agreement with your sensible response.  Thank you for your


In a message dated 98-11-06 19:49:03 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	 Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 Date:	98-11-06 19:49:03 EST
 From:	jmendez(--nospam--at) (Jose M. Mendez, P.E.)
 Reply-to:	seaint(--nospam--at)
 To:	seaint(--nospam--at)
 Dear fellow Colleagues:
 Here are some thoughts in this issue
 I have not seen such a heated debate in years. However the fine prints
 revealed a lot of insecurity behind the thoughts of some of our fellow
 colleagues.  What happened with the old saying... When the going get tough,
 the tough get going, or has it been replaced with,  If you cant stand the
 heat get off  the kitchen.  I would not be concern with foreign competition,
 instead I would be concern with self improvement to tackle such competition.
 One way is to get involve in politics, since it closely tie to economy, this
 is urgently needed to increase the voter participation percentage.   This
 way more state funded universities can be opened.  By the way, there is
 nothing wrong with working and putting oneself through college, this fellows
 will be great engineers with hands on experience.   It is very pitiful and
 even weird that in the best democracy in the world, the voting participation
 is one of the lower, therefore the businesses are taking this sort  of
 decisions and not the people.  The solution to the problems is lobbying, and
 one way of doing it is supporting ASCE or any other PAC behind the
 engineering profession.  Remember that there is link between Business,
 Government, and Society and we engineers could be great politicians, (after
 all there are wrestlers).  Trade has always been like this and it seems that
 now is the turn to the engineers in your area.   Once again the key to this
 is lobbying and self improving.  Young Doctors (MD's) are going through the
 same with the HMOs, in other worlds until they gain some recognition in
 their field, they are labors to these organizations.
 This discussion has taken a lot of time from a big group of engineers, and
 at times it has become bias and racist.  Everyone is entitled to a decent
 living ... and the pursuit of happiness, not only engineers in your area but
 foreigners as well.  It sure is a Catch 22, companies want to reduce cost
 and go overseas, if they stay home they go bankruptcy and lay off workers.
 It is the greed behind some companies that is causing some discomfort in our
 societies, however life was not intended to be fair.   If this is of any
 help, remember these words,  Rich is not the one who have the most but the
 one who need the least.  Remember that the best things in life are free.
 Family, beach, air, beliefs, etc.  People usually use money to buy stuff to
 their kids, however, what kids need the most is quality time expend with
 them.  Remember that old song Harry Chapin's  Cats in the craddle (Im not so
 sure of the name).
 Once again I hope that this issue be dropped so we can keep discussing
 engineering, by the way I do not intend to offend anyones feelings.
 Jose Manuel Mendez Marrero, P.E.
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Maria Isabel Falconi <maisabel(--nospam--at)>
 To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
 Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:02 PM
 Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 >In response to Dennis' post:
 >The problem is that in America you are not used to having foreign
 >competitors in the service sectors.  But you seem to deal ok with products
 >like Japanese cars and appliances.  But who ever heard of competing with a
 >lawyer, an accountant, or an engineer overseas!
 >Let me clarify that it is not "cheap labor" because, as you must be aware
 >of, the standards of living can be very different from one country to
 >another, so that what is considered rock-bottom engineering fees in the
 >States can be actually pretty good somewhere else and afford you a Cornell
 >graduate (like me!).  America does hire cheap labor overseas but for
 >production and assembly of merchandise.  I've just looked at the tags of
 >some American-brandname clothes, (which I bought here for twice the price
 >they are sold for in the States) and they are all "Made in the Philippines"
 >or "Assembled in Costa Rica".  Could you possibly afford to buy things
 >produced by American people?  No way.  Yet you believe that in a business
 >competitive as engineering, contractors/designers should, supposedly on
 >ethical grounds, turn a blind eye on equally qualified engineers in another
 >country where rates are cheaper.
 >Perhaps you should look in a more positive way: if I get more and better
 >paid work, my economy and thus my spending capacity will improve, and I'll
 >buy more American clothes, shoes, books, software, etc. so that YOUR
 >I think that the Internet and satellite communication have opened a whole
 >range of possibilites for globalization of many industries, and I, for one,
 >hope to establish international links for my design consultancy pretty
 >It doesn't have to be all negative- if you're designing a project overseas,
 >say in India or South America, your engineering won't be cost-competitive
 >against the locals.  But if you merge with a local firm and work together,
 >you can produce a well engineered product backed with local knowledge, at a
 >competitive price.  Just a thought.
 >Maria I. Falconi
 >Guayaquil, Ecuador
 >From: Dennis S. Wish PE <wish(--nospam--at)>
 >To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
 >Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 1:01 AM
 >Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 >>Sam, is this a good thing or do you see it simply as a potential fact of
 >>I don't agree with the idea of lowest labor maximum profit when it has the
 >>potential to destroy our economy.
 >>Let me pose this question - when our labor rates are forced in half or
 >>in order to compete against overseas labor, will your bank or mine reduce
 >>the principle on our mortgage to compensate? I don't think they will.
 >>We have already lost much of the manufacturing base in this country in
 >>to satisfy stock investors and maintain maximum corporate profits. Are we
 >>suppose to allow our service industries to follow suite or do we try and
 >>protect our markets.
 >>We had a thread that suggested my rates were much lower than my
 >>in other geographical area's. How will our community react when my rates
 >>five times higher than those in India or other low labor counties?
 >>I don't want to be unfair, but I need to protect my family and the future
 >>my grand-children.
 >>Dennis S. Wish PE
 >>-----Original Message-----
 >>From: Szuchuan Chang [mailto:szchang(--nospam--at)]
 >>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:18 PM
 >>To: seaint(--nospam--at)
 >>Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 >>At 12:03 PM 11/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
 >>>I have heard of larger companies sending work to India and Mexico via
 >>>internet to be designed and drafted for a far lower fee.  I have also
 >>>that some of this work is good work and timely.  I don't know about
 >>>everybody else, but that is pretty darn scary to me.
 >>>Has anyone else heard about this type of deal?
 >>>Blake Haley, P.E.
 >>>White Engineering Associates, Inc.
 >>It has been the case for at least 7-10 years for software design firms.
 >>Major firms like Hewlett Packard contracts their software design to
 >>The advantages of India are (1) very very low wages, (2) English
 >>(3) good universities that keep on producing highly educated engineers.
 >>We are just scratching the surface of the power hidden inside the
 >>Internet.  With Electronically ways of submittal of designs, many parts
 >>of design can be subcontracted to the lowest bidder that have the access
 >>to the internet. Internet highways know of no borders between nations.
 >>Unlike toys or auto parts, they don't even have to worry about shipping
 >>and import/expor fees.  We will have to be able to adjust to the impact
 >>of this global village.  It is coming like it or not!!!
 >>Sam Chang
 >>Cupertino CA