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RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

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I received both of Sib's comments - this one attached to Mr. Marrero's
opinions. In respect to those who do not wish this to continue, I invite
anyone with further comments to submit them to me in private. I would like
to respond to two issues before - I promise to make this brief.

Mr. Marrero stated: "This discussion has taken a lot of time from a big
group of engineers, and  at times it has become bias and racist. "
To this I respond (from my posts and those I have read), admittedly and
justifiably biased - in no manner of intent racist. With this I hold the
greatest distaste because too many believe that the only way to debate
issues that cross contents is to invite racist hatred. I need not be a
racist to hold an opinion. It is based on concern for the future of my
country - which is my opinion shared by many and equally disagreed with.

Mr. Marrero's comments are the same belief's that the majority if not all
people want - and Yes! Harry Chappin's song (which I believe you are
correct) had special meaning for my son and I. Unfortunately, the song was
true in our case although we are closer now.
The fact remains, that Mr. Marrero's comments are simply idealistic and as
much as we would like this to be the solution is not practical. I have done
my share to lobby, vote, write letters and speak my beliefs on this list as
they relate to my profession. I can do no more.
I do not feel that the corruption that occurs in corporate greed will every
change - simply because I don't believe their are enough people that are
willing to act on their convictions.
I might make one suggestion that could make a difference, although would not
be likely. For every corporation that chooses to leave this country solely
to increase profit at the expense of the workers of the country the
originated, the names of every Shareholder should be posted publicly in the
daily news of every major city. How will investors feel taking personal
responsibility for their greed?

Finally, I thank each and every one of you for your comments - agreeable or
not. I have stated my position in every way I know how. I no longer have a
need to resume (unless you wish to privately).

I believe that Maria may have had the best suggestions about finding ways to
make international projects work to the benefit of both. I learned early in
life that the best solution is not always the easiest one to accept. I'm
willing to accept this knowing that I've done my best to defend my position.
I wish you all well.

Dennis Wish PE

-----Original Message-----
From: Sibco6756(--nospam--at) [mailto:Sibco6756(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 10:40 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)


I am very much in agreement with your sensible response.  Thank you for your


In a message dated 98-11-06 19:49:03 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	 Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 Date:	98-11-06 19:49:03 EST
 From:	jmendez(--nospam--at) (Jose M. Mendez, P.E.)
 Reply-to:	seaint(--nospam--at)
 To:	seaint(--nospam--at)

 Dear fellow Colleagues:

 Here are some thoughts in this issue

 I have not seen such a heated debate in years. However the fine prints
 revealed a lot of insecurity behind the thoughts of some of our fellow
 colleagues.  What happened with the old saying... When the going get tough,
 the tough get going, or has it been replaced with,  If you cant stand the
 heat get off  the kitchen.  I would not be concern with foreign
 instead I would be concern with self improvement to tackle such
 One way is to get involve in politics, since it closely tie to economy,
 is urgently needed to increase the voter participation percentage.   This
 way more state funded universities can be opened.  By the way, there is
 nothing wrong with working and putting oneself through college, this
 will be great engineers with hands on experience.   It is very pitiful and
 even weird that in the best democracy in the world, the voting
 is one of the lower, therefore the businesses are taking this sort  of
 decisions and not the people.  The solution to the problems is lobbying,
 one way of doing it is supporting ASCE or any other PAC behind the
 engineering profession.  Remember that there is link between Business,
 Government, and Society and we engineers could be great politicians, (after
 all there are wrestlers).  Trade has always been like this and it seems
 now is the turn to the engineers in your area.   Once again the key to this
 is lobbying and self improving.  Young Doctors (MD's) are going through the
 same with the HMOs, in other worlds until they gain some recognition in
 their field, they are labors to these organizations.

 This discussion has taken a lot of time from a big group of engineers, and
 at times it has become bias and racist.  Everyone is entitled to a decent
 living ... and the pursuit of happiness, not only engineers in your area
 foreigners as well.  It sure is a Catch 22, companies want to reduce cost
 and go overseas, if they stay home they go bankruptcy and lay off workers.
 It is the greed behind some companies that is causing some discomfort in
 societies, however life was not intended to be fair.   If this is of any
 help, remember these words,  Rich is not the one who have the most but the
 one who need the least.  Remember that the best things in life are free.
 Family, beach, air, beliefs, etc.  People usually use money to buy stuff to
 their kids, however, what kids need the most is quality time expend with
 them.  Remember that old song Harry Chapin's  Cats in the craddle (Im not
 sure of the name).

 Once again I hope that this issue be dropped so we can keep discussing
 engineering, by the way I do not intend to offend anyones feelings.

 Jose Manuel Mendez Marrero, P.E.
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Maria Isabel Falconi <maisabel(--nospam--at)>
 To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
 Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:02 PM
 Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

 >In response to Dennis' post:
 >The problem is that in America you are not used to having foreign
 >competitors in the service sectors.  But you seem to deal ok with products
 >like Japanese cars and appliances.  But who ever heard of competing with a
 >lawyer, an accountant, or an engineer overseas!
 >Let me clarify that it is not "cheap labor" because, as you must be aware
 >of, the standards of living can be very different from one country to
 >another, so that what is considered rock-bottom engineering fees in the
 >States can be actually pretty good somewhere else and afford you a Cornell
 >graduate (like me!).  America does hire cheap labor overseas but for
 >production and assembly of merchandise.  I've just looked at the tags of
 >some American-brandname clothes, (which I bought here for twice the price
 >they are sold for in the States) and they are all "Made in the
 >or "Assembled in Costa Rica".  Could you possibly afford to buy things
 >produced by American people?  No way.  Yet you believe that in a business
 >competitive as engineering, contractors/designers should, supposedly on
 >ethical grounds, turn a blind eye on equally qualified engineers in
 >country where rates are cheaper.
 >Perhaps you should look in a more positive way: if I get more and better
 >paid work, my economy and thus my spending capacity will improve, and I'll
 >buy more American clothes, shoes, books, software, etc. so that YOUR
 >I think that the Internet and satellite communication have opened a whole
 >range of possibilites for globalization of many industries, and I, for
 >hope to establish international links for my design consultancy pretty
 >It doesn't have to be all negative- if you're designing a project
 >say in India or South America, your engineering won't be cost-competitive
 >against the locals.  But if you merge with a local firm and work together,
 >you can produce a well engineered product backed with local knowledge, at
 >competitive price.  Just a thought.
 >Maria I. Falconi
 >Guayaquil, Ecuador
 >From: Dennis S. Wish PE <wish(--nospam--at)>
 >To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
 >Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 1:01 AM
 >Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 >>Sam, is this a good thing or do you see it simply as a potential fact of
 >>I don't agree with the idea of lowest labor maximum profit when it has
 >>potential to destroy our economy.
 >>Let me pose this question - when our labor rates are forced in half or
 >>in order to compete against overseas labor, will your bank or mine reduce
 >>the principle on our mortgage to compensate? I don't think they will.
 >>We have already lost much of the manufacturing base in this country in
 >>to satisfy stock investors and maintain maximum corporate profits. Are we
 >>suppose to allow our service industries to follow suite or do we try and
 >>protect our markets.
 >>We had a thread that suggested my rates were much lower than my
 >>in other geographical area's. How will our community react when my rates
 >>five times higher than those in India or other low labor counties?
 >>I don't want to be unfair, but I need to protect my family and the future
 >>my grand-children.
 >>Dennis S. Wish PE
 >>-----Original Message-----
 >>From: Szuchuan Chang [mailto:szchang(--nospam--at)]
 >>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:18 PM
 >>To: seaint(--nospam--at)
 >>Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
 >>At 12:03 PM 11/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
 >>>I have heard of larger companies sending work to India and Mexico via
 >>>internet to be designed and drafted for a far lower fee.  I have also
 >>>that some of this work is good work and timely.  I don't know about
 >>>everybody else, but that is pretty darn scary to me.
 >>>Has anyone else heard about this type of deal?
 >>>Blake Haley, P.E.
 >>>White Engineering Associates, Inc.
 >>It has been the case for at least 7-10 years for software design firms.
 >>Major firms like Hewlett Packard contracts their software design to
 >>The advantages of India are (1) very very low wages, (2) English
 >>(3) good universities that keep on producing highly educated engineers.
 >>We are just scratching the surface of the power hidden inside the
 >>Internet.  With Electronically ways of submittal of designs, many parts
 >>of design can be subcontracted to the lowest bidder that have the access
 >>to the internet. Internet highways know of no borders between nations.
 >>Unlike toys or auto parts, they don't even have to worry about shipping
 >>and import/expor fees.  We will have to be able to adjust to the impact
 >>of this global village.  It is coming like it or not!!!
 >>Sam Chang
 >>Cupertino CA