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Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

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I got cut off without proff reading the above part.

One more thing before I finish.  Inmigrants have helped to shape this
nation.  And all of them have fought for the same reasons you are fighting
today.  When the Irish came in 1800's after the great famine, they were
faced with a lot of discomfort and have to struggle just for the same
reasons.  They wanted to survive and they wanted a chance to raise their
families.  See inmigrants by they own nature, are strong willed  persons
with the guts to leave their love ones and face prejudice in order to
overcome hardship in their own places.  Usually they go to a nation and do
whatever it takes, for two reasons, first, their family is more important
that their pride, and second because there are always a surplus of jobs not
wanted to be done by the locals (since they rather be on unemployment), this
is life.  However, Dennis, this will, that help the inmigrants get through,
is not pass to the next generation because they rather spoiled them by given
their sons and daughters all the stuff that they did not have.

 Remember look at the macro picture and not at the micro.  The jobs being
taken away is just a drop in the bucket, this is one of the forces shaping
the economy.

Once again, I am very sorry for any misunderstandings of this or my previous
emails, remember there is no intent to hurt  or offend anyone.


Jose m. Mendez Marrero, P.E.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jose M. Mendez, P.E. <jmendez(--nospam--at)>
To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)

>Your following message has been delivered to the list
>  seaint(--nospam--at) at 15:28:29 on 11 Nov 1998.
>Dear Dennis:
>This will be my last intervention on this subject matter, in order to
>clarify something.  When I answered the email it was not addressed to
>in particular.  If you take a look at my message it was  link to Maria
>Isabel's email.  However let me apologize to you and to anyone else,  felt
>offended by the content of the same.    As you know a lot of people had
>intervened in this heated argument and sometimes the verbage has become too
>emotionally charged.
>The only point I was trying to stressed was that the economy is too closely
>link to politics, and in our sort of society (pluralistic ones) the power
>funnel through pressure groups like the PACs.  Let me tell you something
>about economy, back in the 60 there wer about 20 US made TV brands.   There
>is barely one today (Cuthis Mathis).  Most of this brands were sold out to
>Japan (remember Packard Bell).  Let me ask you something, Is the nation
>better of without them?  Of course, the whole economy situation is better,
>the prime is down and you can get a morgage for less than 7%.  Was there
>some suffering back then, where are those labors?.  I am sure that some of
>them are making computer monitors.  See the point is this, the economy and
>all sectors are subject to some forces that shape them.  These forces are
>like  growing pains or necessary evils that help them shape, adjust,
>evolved, mutate and diversify.  Major corporations are investing in
>different of products and companies.  Remember dont put all your eggs in
>Let discuss ethics.  For a moment pretend that you are a CEO of a company.
>You willl be rated in accordance to the performance of the stocks.   If it
>goes up you get a Lexus, but if it goes down you dont have a job, but
>furthermore a decision taken by you can leave some fellows peers without
>work.  You ecide to take your company overseas and develop software or do
>drawings, what you rather do leave jobless all your locals or save the
>company until the hardship is over? What will you do? If you can save four
>out of ten, will you make the decision?  The point is this, there some
>ethical arguments which do not have a yes or no answer, nor right or wrong.
>Remember there are no easy solutions, just intelligent choice.
>One last remark.  I would not be concern about the jobs going to Mexico or
>India, sometimes your enemy come from within.  There some other forces
>in your market place that are very unfair and is taking jobs away from you.
>In construction there is bid rigging, there are government officials being
>bribe, there is under quotingetc..  And all of this is right in front of
>your eyes. Once again life was not meant to be fair.
>Dennis, I know that the drives behind your concerns are very honorable,
>your family, nation, etc. but I think thet your arguments are address to a
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis S. Wish PE <wish(--nospam--at)>
>To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
>Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 4:24 PM
>Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>>I received both of Sib's comments - this one attached to Mr. Marrero's
>>opinions. In respect to those who do not wish this to continue, I invite
>>anyone with further comments to submit them to me in private. I would like
>>to respond to two issues before - I promise to make this brief.
>>Mr. Marrero stated: "This discussion has taken a lot of time from a big
>>group of engineers, and  at times it has become bias and racist. "
>>To this I respond (from my posts and those I have read), admittedly and
>>justifiably biased - in no manner of intent racist. With this I hold the
>>greatest distaste because too many believe that the only way to debate
>>issues that cross contents is to invite racist hatred. I need not be a
>>racist to hold an opinion. It is based on concern for the future of my
>>country - which is my opinion shared by many and equally disagreed with.
>>Mr. Marrero's comments are the same belief's that the majority if not all
>>people want - and Yes! Harry Chappin's song (which I believe you are
>>correct) had special meaning for my son and I. Unfortunately, the song was
>>true in our case although we are closer now.
>>The fact remains, that Mr. Marrero's comments are simply idealistic and as
>>much as we would like this to be the solution is not practical. I have
>>my share to lobby, vote, write letters and speak my beliefs on this list
>>they relate to my profession. I can do no more.
>>I do not feel that the corruption that occurs in corporate greed will
>>change - simply because I don't believe their are enough people that are
>>willing to act on their convictions.
>>I might make one suggestion that could make a difference, although would
>>be likely. For every corporation that chooses to leave this country solely
>>to increase profit at the expense of the workers of the country the
>>originated, the names of every Shareholder should be posted publicly in
>>daily news of every major city. How will investors feel taking personal
>>responsibility for their greed?
>>Finally, I thank each and every one of you for your comments - agreeable
>>not. I have stated my position in every way I know how. I no longer have a
>>need to resume (unless you wish to privately).
>>I believe that Maria may have had the best suggestions about finding ways
>>make international projects work to the benefit of both. I learned early
>>life that the best solution is not always the easiest one to accept. I'm
>>willing to accept this knowing that I've done my best to defend my
>>I wish you all well.
>>Dennis Wish PE
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Sibco6756(--nospam--at) [mailto:Sibco6756(--nospam--at)]
>>Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 10:40 AM
>>To: seaint(--nospam--at)
>>Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>>I am very much in agreement with your sensible response.  Thank you for
>>In a message dated 98-11-06 19:49:03 EST, you write:
>><< Subj: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>> Date: 98-11-06 19:49:03 EST
>> From: jmendez(--nospam--at) (Jose M. Mendez, P.E.)
>> Reply-to: seaint(--nospam--at)
>> To: seaint(--nospam--at)
>> Dear fellow Colleagues:
>> Here are some thoughts in this issue
>> I have not seen such a heated debate in years. However the fine prints
>> revealed a lot of insecurity behind the thoughts of some of our fellow
>> colleagues.  What happened with the old saying... When the going get
>> the tough get going, or has it been replaced with,  If you cant stand the
>> heat get off  the kitchen.  I would not be concern with foreign
>> instead I would be concern with self improvement to tackle such
>> One way is to get involve in politics, since it closely tie to economy,
>> is urgently needed to increase the voter participation percentage.   This
>> way more state funded universities can be opened.  By the way, there is
>> nothing wrong with working and putting oneself through college, this
>> will be great engineers with hands on experience.   It is very pitiful
>> even weird that in the best democracy in the world, the voting
>> is one of the lower, therefore the businesses are taking this sort  of
>> decisions and not the people.  The solution to the problems is lobbying,
>> one way of doing it is supporting ASCE or any other PAC behind the
>> engineering profession.  Remember that there is link between Business,
>> Government, and Society and we engineers could be great politicians,
>> all there are wrestlers).  Trade has always been like this and it seems
>> now is the turn to the engineers in your area.   Once again the key to
>> is lobbying and self improving.  Young Doctors (MD's) are going through
>> same with the HMOs, in other worlds until they gain some recognition in
>> their field, they are labors to these organizations.
>> This discussion has taken a lot of time from a big group of engineers,
>> at times it has become bias and racist.  Everyone is entitled to a decent
>> living ... and the pursuit of happiness, not only engineers in your area
>> foreigners as well.  It sure is a Catch 22, companies want to reduce cost
>> and go overseas, if they stay home they go bankruptcy and lay off
>> It is the greed behind some companies that is causing some discomfort in
>> societies, however life was not intended to be fair.   If this is of any
>> help, remember these words,  Rich is not the one who have the most but
>> one who need the least.  Remember that the best things in life are free.
>> Family, beach, air, beliefs, etc.  People usually use money to buy stuff
>> their kids, however, what kids need the most is quality time expend with
>> them.  Remember that old song Harry Chapin's  Cats in the craddle (Im not
>> sure of the name).
>> Once again I hope that this issue be dropped so we can keep discussing
>> engineering, by the way I do not intend to offend anyones feelings.
>> Jose Manuel Mendez Marrero, P.E.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Maria Isabel Falconi <maisabel(--nospam--at)>
>> To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
>> Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>> >In response to Dennis' post:
>> >
>> >The problem is that in America you are not used to having foreign
>> >competitors in the service sectors.  But you seem to deal ok with
>> >like Japanese cars and appliances.  But who ever heard of competing with
>> >lawyer, an accountant, or an engineer overseas!
>> >
>> >Let me clarify that it is not "cheap labor" because, as you must be
>> >of, the standards of living can be very different from one country to
>> >another, so that what is considered rock-bottom engineering fees in the
>> >States can be actually pretty good somewhere else and afford you a
>> >graduate (like me!).  America does hire cheap labor overseas but for
>> >production and assembly of merchandise.  I've just looked at the tags of
>> >some American-brandname clothes, (which I bought here for twice the
>> >that
>> >they are sold for in the States) and they are all "Made in the
>> >or "Assembled in Costa Rica".  Could you possibly afford to buy things
>> >produced by American people?  No way.  Yet you believe that in a
>> as
>> >competitive as engineering, contractors/designers should, supposedly on
>> >ethical grounds, turn a blind eye on equally qualified engineers in
>> >country where rates are cheaper.
>> >
>> >Perhaps you should look in a more positive way: if I get more and better
>> >paid work, my economy and thus my spending capacity will improve, and
>> >buy more American clothes, shoes, books, software, etc. so that YOUR
>> economy
>> >improves.
>> >
>> >I think that the Internet and satellite communication have opened a
>> >range of possibilites for globalization of many industries, and I, for
>> >hope to establish international links for my design consultancy pretty
>> soon.
>> >It doesn't have to be all negative- if you're designing a project
>> >say in India or South America, your engineering won't be
>> >against the locals.  But if you merge with a local firm and work
>> >you can produce a well engineered product backed with local knowledge,
>> >competitive price.  Just a thought.
>> >
>> >Maria I. Falconi
>> >Guayaquil, Ecuador
>> >
>> >From: Dennis S. Wish PE <wish(--nospam--at)>
>> >To: seaint(--nospam--at) <seaint(--nospam--at)>
>> >Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 1:01 AM
>> >Subject: RE: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>> >
>> >
>> >>Sam, is this a good thing or do you see it simply as a potential fact
>> >>life.
>> >>I don't agree with the idea of lowest labor maximum profit when it has
>> >>potential to destroy our economy.
>> >>
>> >>Let me pose this question - when our labor rates are forced in half or
>> more
>> >>in order to compete against overseas labor, will your bank or mine
>> >>the principle on our mortgage to compensate? I don't think they will.
>> >>
>> >>We have already lost much of the manufacturing base in this country in
>> >order
>> >>to satisfy stock investors and maintain maximum corporate profits. Are
>> >>suppose to allow our service industries to follow suite or do we try
>> >>protect our markets.
>> >>
>> >>We had a thread that suggested my rates were much lower than my
>> competition
>> >>in other geographical area's. How will our community react when my
>> >are
>> >>five times higher than those in India or other low labor counties?
>> >>
>> >>I don't want to be unfair, but I need to protect my family and the
>> >of
>> >>my grand-children.
>> >>
>> >>Respectfully
>> >>Dennis S. Wish PE
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Szuchuan Chang [mailto:szchang(--nospam--at)]
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:18 PM
>> >>To: seaint(--nospam--at)
>> >>Subject: Re: Design via Internet (India & Mexico)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 12:03 PM 11/4/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> >>>I have heard of larger companies sending work to India and Mexico via
>> >>the
>> >>>internet to be designed and drafted for a far lower fee.  I have also
>> >>heard
>> >>>that some of this work is good work and timely.  I don't know about
>> >>>everybody else, but that is pretty darn scary to me.
>> >>>Has anyone else heard about this type of deal?
>> >>>
>> >>>Blake Haley, P.E.
>> >>>White Engineering Associates, Inc.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>It has been the case for at least 7-10 years for software design firms.
>> >>Major firms like Hewlett Packard contracts their software design to
>> >>India.
>> >>
>> >>The advantages of India are (1) very very low wages, (2) English
>> >>speaking,
>> >>(3) good universities that keep on producing highly educated engineers.
>> >>
>> >>We are just scratching the surface of the power hidden inside the
>> >>Internet.  With Electronically ways of submittal of designs, many parts
>> >>of design can be subcontracted to the lowest bidder that have the
>> >>to the internet. Internet highways know of no borders between nations.
>> >>Unlike toys or auto parts, they don't even have to worry about shipping
>> >>and import/expor fees.  We will have to be able to adjust to the impact
>> >>of this global village.  It is coming like it or not!!!
>> >>
>> >>Sam Chang
>> >>
>> >>Cupertino CA
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>