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RE: Salary Survey

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I was trying to stay out of this thread because I believe absolutely nothing
positive can every come out of it. IMO, It will never translate into any
form of concrete (pun intended) action or change in society.

That said, to me it doesn't matter if the academic programs of architectural
students and civil engineering students were identical. IMO, a bachelor's
degree in civil engineering gives one the tools to proceed in a field that
requires experience to do well. I am fairly convinced I can take a graduate
Architectural student and have him/her pass the CA SE exam on the first pass
(two of my three proteges passed on the first time) if they were allowed to
sit for it. Of course, they wouldn't have a life for five years :o).

I am amazed that, still, in California, even in seismic zone 4, someone with
a degree in civil engineering (maybe whose specialty was not structural
engineering) can get two years of experience (not necessarily structural
engineering experience), can pass the EIT and PE exam and is legal to stamp
and sign just about any structural plans in the state. If the public was
aware of this, they would be up in arms (or should be).

The field of architecture and the field of structural engineering are
different and both are demanding. It is a shame that the general public is
under the impression that the architect provides the structural engineering
but I pretty much got over that when I realized that, on average, I make
more than he does. He's also the first one to be called if there is a

Ladies and gentlemen, please, lets pick our battles more effectively.

Bill Allen, S.E.
Laguna Niguel, CA

|| -----Original Message-----
|| From: Greg Smith [mailto:strusup(--nospam--at)]
|| Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:19 PM
|| To: seaint(--nospam--at)
|| Subject: Re: Salary Survey
|| I've got to say something.  I attended four years of
|| architecture school in
|| the late 70's.  That is where I got the structural "bug".  There were
|| several proffessors of architecture that were also
|| professional engineers.
|| There was mechanics 1, mechanics 2, structures 1
|| (crosslisted with Civil
|| Engineering structures 1) and the same for structures 2 and 3.
||  Structures 1 covered very basic steel, concrete and timber.
||  Structures 2 was centered around steel frame analysis -
|| multiple portal,
|| transverse bent, stiffness method,flexibility method,
|| mechanism method and
|| moment distribution.
|| Structures 3 was plate and shell analysis.
|| Admittedly, looking back, it was the basics, differential
|| equations was not
|| required and other than compact section criteria and kl/r
|| ratio's no further
|| stability analysis was introduced but the architecture
|| students there were
|| VERY close in comparison to their civil engineering counterparts.
|| Greg
|| -----Original Message-----
|| From: Aya-Welland, Ruben A. <RAyaWelland(--nospam--at)>
|| To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)' <seaint(--nospam--at)>
|| Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:04 PM
|| Subject: RE: Salary Survey
|| > Actually, I would argue that you don't really disagree with my
|| >statement.
|| > Note that I said "Generally, no."  That means for the most
|| part they
|| >cannot
|| > do the same things we can.  However, if you compare a
|| architect JUST
|| >out of
|| > school with a civil engineer JUST out school, they will have
|| >structural
|| > skills that are rather similar.  A lot of young engineers don't
|| >fully grasp
|| > concepts of load paths and cannot intuitively pick a member size.
|| >Much of
|| > what I know now I did not learn during my undergraduate education.
|| >
|| >Scott --- I disagree.
|| >
|| >A civil engineer fresh out of graduate school will have a decent
|| >understanding of structural behavior and load distribution.
|| They will have
|| >taken courses in advanced steel, concrete design as well as
|| structural
|| >dynamics, etc.. (you get the picture).
|| >
|| >An architect fresh out of graduate school will have about
|| the same or
|| >probably less of an understanding of structures as a civil
|| engineer fresh
|| >out of undergraduate school. This would probably include
|| courses in basic
|| >steel, concrete, wood design.
|| >
|| >An architect fresh out of undergraduate school will
|| probably have little to
|| >no understanding of structures --- the most that the
|| typical arch undergrad
|| >student might see in school is a very basic statics and mechanics of
|| >materials course --- if they're ambitious.
|| >
|| >