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Re: You are misinformed and Unlicensed

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Aswin Rangaswamy wrote:

> this what you do by getting a email address from the military - passing such
> racial remarks?  

Sir, in addition to refraining from superlatives of one country over
another country, do NOT cast such ignorant aspersions on the U.S.
military.  First, the poster is "Mr." and not a member of the military. 
Second, the U.S. military has a very different social structure than
almost any other military and does not suffer from the systemic racism
evident in other militaries, to include the Pakistani, Dutch, German,
and Indian armies, to name a few of the organizations I have worked with
and seen such difficulties.  Then again, perhaps the only data you have
to draw from regarding militaries is one other than the U.S.

> Let us not forget that PE is just a examination and does
> not make me or you the king of engineering.  It would be interesting if you
> got the SE license ::)))  

It is comments like this that brings forth what Mr. Wright pointed is more than pushing numbers around.  It is about
having the total knowledge (codes, regulations, etc.) and taking
responsibility for the work.  The P.E. is NOT simply a test, nor was the
earlier posting about "the P.E. just stamped the plans" a proper
assessment of what the "in charge" SHOULD do.  IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE
WORK THERE, EITHER ON-SITE OR REMOTE. The attitude that the P.E. "is
just a test" demonstrates either a lack of knowledge or lack of due care
in earning the title or being the "in charge."  I have known of
engineers given unfavorable performance reports, even "let go" for
demonstrating such attitudes.  I would never hire an engineer, either as
staff or consultant, who had such attitudes REGARDLESS of the alleged

 Incidently...many states do not grant a "structural engineer" license,
so being an "S.E." is moot for many.

> There are equally qualified engineers here and in other parts of the world.
> Open you eyes and please try to see beyond America.

If you have truly followed the arguments, this has had NOTHING to due to
racism or nationalism, at least from most of what I've seen from the
"U.S." side (if there is such a "side" in this discussion.)  It has been
others claiming to be "better than" so-and-so.  The claim the "U.S."
side has made is about EXPERIENCE AND APPROPRIATE KNOWLEDGE.  A person
cannot claim to be "equally qualified" if they lack the proper knowledge
of the project, have not passed the local licensing requirements, etc.  

I can PERHAPS buy into allowing others, local or remote, to do
"technician" type work, such as a well defined analysis.  However, I am
very skeptical of anyone's ability to perform civil or structural
"engineering", meaning either doing or supervising the process of
gathering information, making decisions, AND pushing numbers around,
without having that requisite local knowledge and experience.

I also feel this is very much "on topic" for this list.  It's great to
get specific help with a given problem, but doing just the math is
"technician" work.  Engineering is the entire process involved, and the
issue of overseas versus local qualifications IS valid.  I recall an
earlier posting of "big US/European engineer companies" screwing up in
the Caribbean because they did NOT address the entire process.   

This is NOT about nationalism NOR about racism.  I believe those who
focus on these issues, from either "side", are missing the valid points.
 I have YET to see an intelligent, reasoned reply to the issue regarding
those working "remote" who lack the licensing, local knowledge
(conditions, regulations, contractors, etc.) and experience for a given
job could somehow be considered "equal," "as good as," or even
"superior" to an engineer WITH those attributes.  Accusing those who
raise these points as being "racist" or "nationalist" does not answer
the least, not directly.

Bart Kemper, P.E.

1.  If you have a personal beef with someone, reply off-list.  If you
are constant saying "you said" or "you don't know" or using their name,
its a personal beef.

2.  Please learn the art of "delete" as well as "cut and paste"...some
of the postings have been very hard to read.  It is difficult giving
someone credence regarding their engineering prowess if they have failed
to master the use of email.

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