Let's drop this, shall we? It's not productive for anyone, is it really?
Bill Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
Laguna Niguel, CA
||From: Bart Kemper, P.E. (http://www.bigdogz.com/bart)
||Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:02 PM
||Subject: Re: You are misinformed and Unlicensed
||Aswin Rangaswamy wrote:
||> this what you do by getting a email address from the
||military - passing such
||> racial remarks?
||Sir, in addition to refraining from superlatives of one country over
||another country, do NOT cast such ignorant aspersions on the U.S.
||military. First, the poster is "Mr." and not a member of the
||Second, the U.S. military has a very different social structure than
||almost any other military and does not suffer from the systemic racism
||evident in other militaries, to include the Pakistani, Dutch, German,
||and Indian armies, to name a few of the organizations I have
||and seen such difficulties. Then again, perhaps the only
||data you have
||to draw from regarding militaries is one other than the U.S.
||> Let us not forget that PE is just a examination and does
||> not make me or you the king of engineering. It would be
||interesting if you
||> got the SE license ::)))
||It is comments like this that brings forth what Mr. Wright pointed
||out....engineering is more than pushing numbers around. It is about
||having the total knowledge (codes, regulations, etc.) and taking
||responsibility for the work. The P.E. is NOT simply a test,
||nor was the
||earlier posting about "the P.E. just stamped the plans" a proper
||assessment of what the "in charge" SHOULD do. IF YOU CANNOT
||PROPER ENGINEERING PROCESS FOR A GIVEN AREA/COUNTRY, YOU
||SHOULD *NOT* DO
||WORK THERE, EITHER ON-SITE OR REMOTE. The attitude that the P.E. "is
||just a test" demonstrates either a lack of knowledge or lack
||of due care
||in earning the title or being the "in charge." I have known of
||engineers given unfavorable performance reports, even "let go" for
||demonstrating such attitudes. I would never hire an
||engineer, either as
||staff or consultant, who had such attitudes REGARDLESS of the alleged
|| Incidently...many states do not grant a "structural
||so being an "S.E." is moot for many.
||> There are equally qualified engineers here and in other
||parts of the world.
||> Open you eyes and please try to see beyond America.
||If you have truly followed the arguments, this has had
||NOTHING to due to
||racism or nationalism, at least from most of what I've seen from the
||"U.S." side (if there is such a "side" in this discussion.)
||It has been
||others claiming to be "better than" so-and-so. The claim the "U.S."
||side has made is about EXPERIENCE AND APPROPRIATE KNOWLEDGE. A person
||cannot claim to be "equally qualified" if they lack the
||of the project, have not passed the local licensing
||I can PERHAPS buy into allowing others, local or remote, to do
||"technician" type work, such as a well defined analysis.
||However, I am
||very skeptical of anyone's ability to perform civil or structural
||"engineering", meaning either doing or supervising the process of
||gathering information, making decisions, AND pushing numbers around,
||without having that requisite local knowledge and experience.
||I also feel this is very much "on topic" for this list. It's great to
||get specific help with a given problem, but doing just the math is
||"technician" work. Engineering is the entire process
||involved, and the
||issue of overseas versus local qualifications IS valid. I recall an
||earlier posting of "big US/European engineer companies" screwing up in
||the Caribbean because they did NOT address the entire process.
||This is NOT about nationalism NOR about racism. I believe those who
||focus on these issues, from either "side", are missing the
|| I have YET to see an intelligent, reasoned reply to the
||those working "remote" who lack the licensing, local knowledge
||(conditions, regulations, contractors, etc.) and experience
||for a given
||job could somehow be considered "equal," "as good as," or even
||"superior" to an engineer WITH those attributes. Accusing those who
||raise these points as being "racist" or "nationalist" does not answer
||the question....at least, not directly.
||Bart Kemper, P.E.
||1. If you have a personal beef with someone, reply off-list. If you
||are constant saying "you said" or "you don't know" or using
||its a personal beef.
||2. Please learn the art of "delete" as well as "cut and paste"...some
||of the postings have been very hard to read. It is difficult giving
||someone credence regarding their engineering prowess if they
||to master the use of email.
******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
* Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
* This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
* Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
* subscribe (no fee) to the list, send email to
* admin(--nospam--at)seaint.org and in the body of the message type
* "join seaint" (no quotes). To Unsubscribe, send email
* to admin(--nospam--at)seaint.org and in the body of the message
* type "leave seaint" (no quotes). For questions, send
* email to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you
* send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
* without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
* site at: http://www.seaint.org
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********