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RE: You are misinformed and Unlicensed

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Okay, already!

Let's drop this, shall we? It's not productive for anyone, is it really?

Sheesh!

Bill Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
ALLEN DESIGNS
Laguna Niguel, CA
http://www.AllenDesigns.com 

||-----Original Message-----
||From: Bart Kemper, P.E. (http://www.bigdogz.com/bart)
||[mailto:bkemper(--nospam--at)bigdogz.com]
||Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:02 PM
||To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
||Subject: Re: You are misinformed and Unlicensed
||
||
||
||
||Aswin Rangaswamy wrote:
||
||>Is
||> this what you do by getting a email address from the 
||military - passing such
||> racial remarks?  
||
||Sir, in addition to refraining from superlatives of one country over
||another country, do NOT cast such ignorant aspersions on the U.S.
||military.  First, the poster is "Mr." and not a member of the 
||military. 
||Second, the U.S. military has a very different social structure than
||almost any other military and does not suffer from the systemic racism
||evident in other militaries, to include the Pakistani, Dutch, German,
||and Indian armies, to name a few of the organizations I have 
||worked with
||and seen such difficulties.  Then again, perhaps the only 
||data you have
||to draw from regarding militaries is one other than the U.S.
||
||> Let us not forget that PE is just a examination and does
||> not make me or you the king of engineering.  It would be 
||interesting if you
||> got the SE license ::)))  
||
||It is comments like this that brings forth what Mr. Wright pointed
||out....engineering is more than pushing numbers around.  It is about
||having the total knowledge (codes, regulations, etc.) and taking
||responsibility for the work.  The P.E. is NOT simply a test, 
||nor was the
||earlier posting about "the P.E. just stamped the plans" a proper
||assessment of what the "in charge" SHOULD do.  IF YOU CANNOT 
||FOLLOW THE
||PROPER ENGINEERING PROCESS FOR A GIVEN AREA/COUNTRY, YOU 
||SHOULD *NOT* DO
||WORK THERE, EITHER ON-SITE OR REMOTE. The attitude that the P.E. "is
||just a test" demonstrates either a lack of knowledge or lack 
||of due care
||in earning the title or being the "in charge."  I have known of
||engineers given unfavorable performance reports, even "let go" for
||demonstrating such attitudes.  I would never hire an 
||engineer, either as
||staff or consultant, who had such attitudes REGARDLESS of the alleged
||skills. 
||
|| Incidently...many states do not grant a "structural 
||engineer" license,
||so being an "S.E." is moot for many.
||
||> 
||> There are equally qualified engineers here and in other 
||parts of the world.
||> Open you eyes and please try to see beyond America.
||
||If you have truly followed the arguments, this has had 
||NOTHING to due to
||racism or nationalism, at least from most of what I've seen from the
||"U.S." side (if there is such a "side" in this discussion.)  
||It has been
||others claiming to be "better than" so-and-so.  The claim the "U.S."
||side has made is about EXPERIENCE AND APPROPRIATE KNOWLEDGE.  A person
||cannot claim to be "equally qualified" if they lack the 
||proper knowledge
||of the project, have not passed the local licensing 
||requirements, etc.  
||
||I can PERHAPS buy into allowing others, local or remote, to do
||"technician" type work, such as a well defined analysis.  
||However, I am
||very skeptical of anyone's ability to perform civil or structural
||"engineering", meaning either doing or supervising the process of
||gathering information, making decisions, AND pushing numbers around,
||without having that requisite local knowledge and experience.
||
||I also feel this is very much "on topic" for this list.  It's great to
||get specific help with a given problem, but doing just the math is
||"technician" work.  Engineering is the entire process 
||involved, and the
||issue of overseas versus local qualifications IS valid.  I recall an
||earlier posting of "big US/European engineer companies" screwing up in
||the Caribbean because they did NOT address the entire process.   
||
||This is NOT about nationalism NOR about racism.  I believe those who
||focus on these issues, from either "side", are missing the 
||valid points.
|| I have YET to see an intelligent, reasoned reply to the 
||issue regarding
||those working "remote" who lack the licensing, local knowledge
||(conditions, regulations, contractors, etc.) and experience 
||for a given
||job could somehow be considered "equal," "as good as," or even
||"superior" to an engineer WITH those attributes.  Accusing those who
||raise these points as being "racist" or "nationalist" does not answer
||the question....at least, not directly.
||
||Bart Kemper, P.E.
||
||
||
||1.  If you have a personal beef with someone, reply off-list.  If you
||are constant saying "you said" or "you don't know" or using 
||their name,
||its a personal beef.
||
||2.  Please learn the art of "delete" as well as "cut and paste"...some
||of the postings have been very hard to read.  It is difficult giving
||someone credence regarding their engineering prowess if they 
||have failed
||to master the use of email.

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