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Re: You are misinformed and Unlicensed

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Both of you should agree to disagree and get on with it....or take it
outside.......

jim


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Kemper, P.E. (http://www.bigdogz.com/bart)"
<bkemper(--nospam--at)bigdogz.com>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: You are misinformed and Unlicensed


>
>
> Aswin Rangaswamy wrote:
>
> >Is
> > this what you do by getting a email address from the military - passing
such
> > racial remarks?
>
> Sir, in addition to refraining from superlatives of one country over
> another country, do NOT cast such ignorant aspersions on the U.S.
> military.  First, the poster is "Mr." and not a member of the military.
> Second, the U.S. military has a very different social structure than
> almost any other military and does not suffer from the systemic racism
> evident in other militaries, to include the Pakistani, Dutch, German,
> and Indian armies, to name a few of the organizations I have worked with
> and seen such difficulties.  Then again, perhaps the only data you have
> to draw from regarding militaries is one other than the U.S.
>
> > Let us not forget that PE is just a examination and does
> > not make me or you the king of engineering.  It would be interesting if
you
> > got the SE license ::)))
>
> It is comments like this that brings forth what Mr. Wright pointed
> out....engineering is more than pushing numbers around.  It is about
> having the total knowledge (codes, regulations, etc.) and taking
> responsibility for the work.  The P.E. is NOT simply a test, nor was the
> earlier posting about "the P.E. just stamped the plans" a proper
> assessment of what the "in charge" SHOULD do.  IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE
> PROPER ENGINEERING PROCESS FOR A GIVEN AREA/COUNTRY, YOU SHOULD *NOT* DO
> WORK THERE, EITHER ON-SITE OR REMOTE. The attitude that the P.E. "is
> just a test" demonstrates either a lack of knowledge or lack of due care
> in earning the title or being the "in charge."  I have known of
> engineers given unfavorable performance reports, even "let go" for
> demonstrating such attitudes.  I would never hire an engineer, either as
> staff or consultant, who had such attitudes REGARDLESS of the alleged
> skills.
>
>  Incidently...many states do not grant a "structural engineer" license,
> so being an "S.E." is moot for many.
>
> >
> > There are equally qualified engineers here and in other parts of the
world.
> > Open you eyes and please try to see beyond America.
>
> If you have truly followed the arguments, this has had NOTHING to due to
> racism or nationalism, at least from most of what I've seen from the
> "U.S." side (if there is such a "side" in this discussion.)  It has been
> others claiming to be "better than" so-and-so.  The claim the "U.S."
> side has made is about EXPERIENCE AND APPROPRIATE KNOWLEDGE.  A person
> cannot claim to be "equally qualified" if they lack the proper knowledge
> of the project, have not passed the local licensing requirements, etc.
>
> I can PERHAPS buy into allowing others, local or remote, to do
> "technician" type work, such as a well defined analysis.  However, I am
> very skeptical of anyone's ability to perform civil or structural
> "engineering", meaning either doing or supervising the process of
> gathering information, making decisions, AND pushing numbers around,
> without having that requisite local knowledge and experience.
>
> I also feel this is very much "on topic" for this list.  It's great to
> get specific help with a given problem, but doing just the math is
> "technician" work.  Engineering is the entire process involved, and the
> issue of overseas versus local qualifications IS valid.  I recall an
> earlier posting of "big US/European engineer companies" screwing up in
> the Caribbean because they did NOT address the entire process.
>
> This is NOT about nationalism NOR about racism.  I believe those who
> focus on these issues, from either "side", are missing the valid points.
>  I have YET to see an intelligent, reasoned reply to the issue regarding
> those working "remote" who lack the licensing, local knowledge
> (conditions, regulations, contractors, etc.) and experience for a given
> job could somehow be considered "equal," "as good as," or even
> "superior" to an engineer WITH those attributes.  Accusing those who
> raise these points as being "racist" or "nationalist" does not answer
> the question....at least, not directly.
>
> Bart Kemper, P.E.
>
>
>
> 1.  If you have a personal beef with someone, reply off-list.  If you
> are constant saying "you said" or "you don't know" or using their name,
> its a personal beef.
>
> 2.  Please learn the art of "delete" as well as "cut and paste"...some
> of the postings have been very hard to read.  It is difficult giving
> someone credence regarding their engineering prowess if they have failed
> to master the use of email.
>
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