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RE: Wage Busting

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Mr. Fisher,
First, I find it offensive that each time I read your remarks, I am prompted
to send you a confirmation that I have read your remarks - please remove the
receipt function from your post.
Second, you seem to miss the point as you criticize any American seeking
employment who enters your door expecting opportunity. You seem to think
that the opportunity to work on a Caribbean project is the same as offering
the employee incentive that includes a Caribbean vacation. While I live in
the Palm Springs area, I would not consider my working experience as a
vacation - possibly one reason why I, like many of the locals, are pale by
comparison to the "Snowbirds" that come to visit.
The issues are not about your salary, but your attitude. Do your
advertisements include statements such as - Decent Salary, No Advancement?
They should as your attitude is one that seeks employees and considers "Your
Firm" your accomplishment. My point is while you opened the firm, your
success depends upon the creativeness and competency of your employee's -
something that should be rewarded with opportunities for advancement. You
will never find a loyal employee who does not aspire to either share in the
profits of the business or to have the opportunity for advancement into a
partnership position.
While I give you credit for starting your own firm, I take away points for
arrogance and greed.
Your final comment in your third post indicates your failure to understand
the H-1B provisions and this, in the strictest sense, violates the intent of
the H-1B law. You state "Finally, after all the training and money I have
invested in my H1-B visa
engineer from Germany, I sincerely HOPE he wants to obtain his green card
and become a
permant employee!!
What he wants and what the H-1B program intend are two different goals. H-1B
is not intended to be a "stepping stone" for entering the United States with
the anticipation of becomming a Green Card holder. This is one of the
greatest arguments within the professional community as the law strictly
limits the length of time the H-1B visa is issued for. In fact, the law
limits the terms of employment for the Visa holder. If he leaves your firm,
he can not simply seek another employer, he must reapply for a new H-1B visa
and have an employer already available to sponsor him. In other words,
should you at any time become dissatisfied with your H-1B employee, you have
the power to send him immediately out of the country - not an incentive for
employment in my opinion.
While your pay scale is not at issue in this argument, your arrogance and
disdain of American employees certainly is. This may be the reason why your
advertisement for qualified help has provided no responses or no applicants.
Most of those I know in the professional community would not work for you.
Instead, you hire a professional from another country knowing that at your
whim, you can expel him from the United States. While I don't believe "Most"
employers think about the power they have over their employees, your
comments imply that you consider your employee to be your indentured slave
and the termination of his employment is both a means to subjugate him and
to prevent him from becoming overly ambitious.
BTW, you aren't investing in an H-1B employee, you are paying a fair wage
for a fair job done. If you choose to train, you are expected to do so
understanding the limitation of the H-1B program and should not expect more
than a 6-year maximum employment period. If you choose to help him obtain a
green card, you justify every complaint made about the H-1b program and,
incidentally, the criticism stated against you.
Dennis S. Wish, PE

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)]
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 4:21 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)
> Subject: RE: Wage Busting
> I don't put anyone down who wants to be in management...
> Just the ones that want to come in, take what I've built and make it their
> own.
> If that's the case...then they can do what I did...
> Have a little guts and start their own firm!
> With some hard work by all involved, we've grown to 20 employees in 2 1/2
> years.
> By the way...."management" is the part of the job i hate...
> I'd rather design; but someone has to run the place.
> On the subject of economics, A german structural engineer working
> in berlin
> and munich is not exactly
> wallowing in poverty!
> Finally, after all the training and money I have invested in my H1-B visa
> engineer from
> Germany, I sincerely HOPE he wants to obtain his green card and become a
> permant employee!!
> Regards,
> David L. Fisher, SE,PE
> Senior Principal
> Fisher+Horos Structural Engineers
> 372 West Ontario
> Chicago, Illinois 60610
> 312.573.1701
> 312.573.1726 fax
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Structuralist [mailto:dennis.wish(--nospam--at)]
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:36 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)
> Subject: RE: Wage Busting
> David,
> You are acting within the intent of the law from what it sounds. However,
> you make a statement about the "so-called 'over qualified/senior' workers'
> and I believe that this is a little over the top. I would expect that any
> senior professional aspires to be in management as this is the American
> dream. You seem to put this down as having an ulterior motive to take over
> your business.
> You are in control of who you hire, but I doubt if you ever graduated
> college with the intention of never owning or being a partner in your own
> firm - so why put down others who have the aspirations?
> I believe you are wrong to assume that any professional willing
> to come into
> the United States is here without some hope in their hearts that this be a
> permanent stay and with a desire to seek the same opportunities
> for success
> as you have attained. They may not say this, but the article published in
> the "times of India Online"
> confirms that there is a desire to use the H-1B temporary Visa as
> a stepping
> stone to a Green card or permanent residency.
> Please read this article and then tell me if you truly believe that these
> professionals are happy just to come here, devote six years of their lives
> to working in this country and then happy to leave and return
> back to their
> mother-country?
> Considering the suffering in poverty that exists in most of the impoverish
> nations we seek labor from, it is not reasonable to think that they "carry
> less baggage" only less than they are willing to let you know about.
> Respectfully,
> Dennis S. Wish, PE
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 6:29 AM
> > To: seaint(--nospam--at)
> > Subject: RE: Wage Busting
> >
> >
> > We've found that the so-called "over qualified/senior" workers aren't
> > interested in designing buildings.
> >
> > They want to "manage projects"; own a piece of my firm; get
> paid a lot of
> > money and tell me how to run my business.
> >
> >
> > American "mid-level" people aren't available....we've posted well paying
> > project engineer level job opportunities
> > on both the internet and in the Chicago Tribune; so we've made the jobs
> > available to US engineers...the best qualified resumes we've
> > gotten have been from overseas.
> >
> > In accordance with the INS H1-B visa provisions, we pay
> > competitive salaries
> > (frankly, much more than market rate here in Chicago)
> > to those we bring in from overseas. They work very hard and have
> > a hell of a
> > lot less baggage.
> >
> >
> > David L. Fisher, SE,PE
> > Senior Principal
> > Fisher+Horos Structural Engineers
> > 372 West Ontario
> > Chicago, Illinois 60610
> > USA
> >
> > 312.573.1701
> > 312.573.1726 fax
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Todd Hill [mailto:thill(--nospam--at)]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 8:52 AM
> > To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)'
> > Subject: RE: Wage Busting
> >
> >
> > <<
> > Before we look off shore for foreign engineers industry should,
> > at the very
> > least, expand their selection of personnel to the pool of "Over
> Qualified"
> > and senior more experienced American Engineers and High Tech workers
> > cultured
> > by years of experience.
> > >>
> >
> > So where are these people located?
> > We have run employment ads for the past couple of months and
> have received
> > very few (if any) responses.
> > Because of this we are now starting to look abroad.
> > I've also talked to few other people in our industry and this
> seems to be
> > the trend.
> > I might be naive, but I don't think it is so much "wage
> busting" as it is
> > too few workers.
> >
> >
> >