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RE: California PE Vs SE requirements

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Hi Bill
Well , lets see. I never will refer to fellow engineers as OLD and nasty
!!as you seem to indicate that I did.? I never have had an occasion that I
did not enjoy talking to the engineers and even when the knowledge lacked it
was never nasty. We crack jokes and talk and enjoy each others company all
the time .
I have been attending the dinner meetings since 1978 on quite a regular
basis , and if anything I tremendously enjoy talking to older engineers with
their vast knowledge.  An old saying in the 80's was that I learned my
structural engineering from hanging around the juice bar at the the SEOAC's
dinner meetings and listening to other engineers and asking question. 
I have belonged to SEAOC since 1979. I attended the conventions at Santa
Barbara and Vancouver and plan to attend the San Diego this year.  I
personally appreciated your efforts during the Santa Barbara Convention I
even take my family each year.
I disagree with the fact  that I was pictured by you as some one who dose
not appreciate the hard work of SEAOC committee' s and also numerous
excellent seminar and mini seminars that they provide for the profession.
For your knowledge most of the engineers that I was talking about do not
even belong to SEAOC and when I ask/beg  them RE joining SEAOC they say no!.

I love SEAOC and what it dose , I love structural engineering. I am not so
young myself , In 1973 I was designing 10 story concrete buildings for the
structural engineering company using moment distribution , multi bay skip
loading etc all long hand calculations page after page. Then the use of
computers were not so common and believe me I was in the company of many
older engineers.
I appreciate all SEAOC seminars ICBO's structural Seminars , AISC seminars ,
ATC seminars  and everyone that is involved in their preparation.
My problem is not with all the dedicated people who prepare these wonderful
eye opening seminars its with those who chose not to ripe the benefits of
these and chose not to attend these excellent seminars.
I also agree with you that I would prefer if the building was inspected by
the engineer  , but its not happening I.e. not many cities have engineers on
staff and the engineer in the building dept.. is a minority!!. why you ask?
answer is the low  pay? Look at the Jobs available magazine  this week.!
City of Orange CA needs a plan check engineer with PE and ICBO certification
as well as the engineers degree  and it offers  $4200per month. City of
Newport beach has a opening for a permit technician with high school diploma
as the  requirement and the  top pay is $4300? Why would an engineer join
the public sector when  they never pay enough and  they pay the high school
diploma more?
I also agree that you say you support continuing education.
I have 4 years of private practice design experience and 20 years of public
service work experience.
I am a certified building official or C.B.O.
I am also a ICBO certified plans examiner
So to answer to your question : I have not been siting on my rear for the
past 20 years? I have taken these tests during the past 20 years and got
myself the title of the Engineer building official and  why not! Why
shouldn't the engineer be a building official?
 Not many engineers are certified building officials, . These testes are
difficult also and include passing numerous examinations in law ,building
dept.. administration management and budgeting as well technical tests.
It is better to have ICBO certificate , the  PE and the building official
certification at this time if I want to advance in the various city's
building dept.'s. SE is for hospitals and city dose not do hospitals and
schools.But most city's job announcement for building official positions
requires a Certified building official and lets face it I am a public sector
engineer and need to advance in public sector. This is  for my sake and also
for the sake of other engineers or the engineering trade  that is not well
established in public sector.
I want you to know that I am very hard working . I am almost 50 years old ,
and I get up at 4 am each day and drive to Palmdale from Anaheim along the
route 138 which is also known as the blood alley or the  the death trap
hwy..... due to numerous fatal accident in that road.This drive takes 4 1/2
hours and its 230 miles daily.
I work until 7 , 8 or 9 PM then get back home at 9 ,10 or 11pm in time to go
to bed to get up and  head back again. So do not call me a lazy engineer not
taking a 16 hour  test. On top of it on Saturdays I am usually the first one
in the seminar at the windham garden hotel  if there is one ! Don Gilbert
will tell you that I am usually there before him.Or I have to go to change
oil on my car every other Saturday  as I drive so much?
So let me tell you I spent 4 1/2 hours a day driving and 9 to 10 hours a day
working , I have done that for the past 7 years.I usually work straight
through well passed the closer of city hall at 5 pm and I do not take
lunch.I have faxed plan check corrections to the engineers at 10 pm and they
said no city hall has had staff working at 10 pm faxing correction at that
time as I do!
 From 1980 to 1990  I worked for Long beach City hall and I lived in apple
valley that is a 8 hour daily commute plus an 8 to 10 hours work day. I Do
not think that I am doing bad with all this super commuting and I still
attend all SEAOC seminars AISC seminars SEAOC conventions as well as passing
my building official tests .
Also When I took the CSULB classes for the PE the SE  test review classes SE
and PE test examples were from the same book and the same chapters .For
example to pass the PE using the CV Chelopati's PE review classes in
concrete the first 10 chapters were to be learned and these were  common to
the SE test also. The only different SE test  did was that  it had post
tension design added.
I have spent 2 year researching post tension concrete , I have a one inch
thick thesis regarding my master of engineering in structural engineering
with research in post tension concrete. I have personally designed  , build
and tested numerous I beams at the university of Sheffield under guidance of
professor Sway the ACI Committee 544 member.My research was on partial
prestress concrete . So I can show you that my knowledge of prestress is
also up to many SE's standards. I have to show you my thesis some time with
picture graphs etc......
Also as it was said by Mr. Wish a 16 hour exam dose not give the  experience
, I have structurally plan checked checked the Spruce goose dome in long
beach. The , . my 20 years of experience plan checking numerous 10 story
buildings 6 story buildings ,  parking structures , US Air Force mega
manufacturing building facilities for C17 , C131, JSF etc , is not matched
by many people. I have plan checked the Ontario airport terminal expansion
,it was designed using  dynamic analysis by DMJM. This was a  $250 million
project, I have plan checked several one million square foot warehouses in
Ontario , I have plan checked , Texaco and arco tanker terminals at the port
of long beach each at $50 million each, I have plan checked the head quarter
of the SCE in Long beach a 6 story concrete structure plus attached open
parking. I have plan checked the Lancaster municipal baseball stadium, I
have plan checked high occupancy structures such as antelope valley mall
with 200,000 square feet anchor stores . So  my knowledge and experience and
vast exposure to the structural engineering methods and designs of many
types of structure possible is evident . I have plan checked 425 units apts.
over 2 story concrete parking . I have plan checked numerous concrete
ductile moment frame structures and parking structures . I have worked with
Myers and nelson , MBM engineers , Bole and Wilson  structural engineers ,
Dmjm engineers , fluor Daniel engineers etc. , I have worked with HBL when I
plan checked the Palmdale city hall. I have plan checked Fire stations and
police stations under the essential facilities act. I can go on for ever. 
I have  been the humble student of many famous structural engineers such as
John Ship, James Amerhiem , Ron Hamburger, James Lie , Dick Phillips etc etc
and structural engineering is my life . I can list you many engineers that
you also may know that have worked closely with me and I respect them all.
Having said all that If you can use your influence to get me a job closer to
home such as City of Newport beach , Irvine etc I promise the first thing
that I do when I have 4 extra hours a day on my hands that I do not have to
commute is to take your 16 hour test although I fell more qualified any way.
 From: Williston L. Warren, IV - S.E. [mailto:Bill_Warren(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:39 AM
To: Listserver SEAINT
Subject: Re: California PE vs SE requirements

Drew is correct, Sid is a plan reviewer who does attend those seminars put
on by and provides speakers by those old nasty SE that he does not think
keep up.  It is true some California SE may not keep up as much as possible,
but far less than the CA PE he prefers.  Speaking of motivation, what about
not taking the SE if you have 20 years of experience, it is just a simple 16
hour exam.
Truth is that California SEs or SEAOC along with many dedicated CE members
of SEAOC provide the seminar Sid refers to, but I would prefer an individual
with a CA SE inspecting buildings rather that those who take a take home
test every 3 years and still do not understand the concepts behind the Code.
I think the problem is clear, it is not SEs with 20 years of experience or
even the highway of death, it is those who do not advance themselves or sit
back and wait for others to advance them.  But again I do agree, there
should be continuing education, because my experience has shown that plan
reviewers that have never designed or been responsible for anything should
be included in that required continuing education.  
I as well as others would appear to meet our continuing education
requirements due to service in the committees that generate the new code
revisions, the seismic design manuals and are the presenters at seminars
that Sid attends.  I have found that the provision of the Seismic Design
manuals are not enough for some plan reviewers, during plan review many of
use have to provide more private seminars for a more through understanding.

Williston "Bill" L. Warren, IV - S.E.
Structural Engineering SOLutions
Newport Beach, California
From: "Drew A. Norman, SE" < DNorman(--nospam--at)
<mailto:DNorman(--nospam--at)> >
Subject: Re: California PE vs SE requirements
To: seaint(--nospam--at) <mailto:seaint(--nospam--at)> 


Free reference books!  ;o)

For those on the list who don't know, Sid is a structural planchecker for
the City of Palmdale.  He's hard on folks who try and get permits in his
jurisdiction without proper engineering, but it sounds like it might be
worth the fee if some of us were to submit a ringer just to get him to send
us an extra copy of the seismic design manual at no charge.



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