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RE: Pre-Engineered Metal Building Foundation - Ballpark Design

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Having been on the other side of the fence I would have to agree the best
option is to sign the contract with the manufacturer.  Asking for reactions,
anchor bolts (rods), etc. on a quote from a PEMB is no different than
someone asking you for a preliminary (90% complete) design on a building
they might ask you to design for them (or pay you).

Now having said that, I would also like to point out that many times
preliminary anchor rods, reactions, etc. may be available at the quote
stage.  This information (while not available on all projects) would be
marked preliminary (yada, yada, yada)...  I would say that 70-80% of the
time this should be available with some effort. Reactions are more likely
than anchor bolt patterns and base plates but all would be within reach on
most quotes.  Keep in mind that the possibilty of getting this info would
decrease as the time crunch increases (similar to your work)...  you want a
10 minute quote, you get 10 minute results.

I am sure you intended no PEMB bias on items #1 and #2, but if you were then
I would kindly remind you that we produce what the customer orders.  On the
quote stage there should always be a quote for the frame locations as asked
for.  In some cases where savings can be acheived an alternate may be
provided with the original quote.  Either way the final choice of frame
locations would be up to the customer/contractor virtually all of the
time... (exceptions would be if customer did not want a frame within 20 ft
of a 2000 kip load... or items similar to that... still must have valid load
paths that are capable of transferring the loads).

If all else fails ask the contractor to ask for preliminary anchor bolt
information... worst case is manufacturer says they can not provide them
(either within a time frame, or at all).  If that happens I would guess you
next best bet would be to run a suedo building in another software like
RISA, STAAD, RAM, etc.  A lot of times I would bet preliminary information
could be available... and if the building has been ordered then the
probablity would greatly increase...

Hope this helps,
Greg Effland, P.E.
KC MO, USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Jake Watson [mailto:jwatson(--nospam--at)utahisp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 1:56 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Pre-Engineered Metal Building Foundation - Ballpark Design


There has been a discussion by SEAU to require submittals like this before
you can even apply for a building permit.  Too many of our members have the
same problem.

There are two approaches I have seen used in the past with a fair amount of
success:

1) Dictate requirements to the metal building guys.  Tell them that your
frames will be here, and only here.  With that you can typically estimate
reactions.  You can even make it impossible to build, this will get the
attention of the metal building guys and might get you some feedback.

2) Tell the contractor that you can do anything "for the right price."  You
can guess at frame locations and provide foundations. But because you don't
know the reactions or frame locations, you will oversize the foundations to
account for the frame forces.  You can even provide the same extremely large
foundations everywhere so the metal building guys can put their frame
anywhere.  Contractors are typically very sensitive to cost.  When they
recognize that the metal building guys are costing them money, the
contractor will find a way to get you your answers.

In a more realistic sense, you can dictate pinned bases to eliminate the
overturning variable.  This should help a lot in estimating reactions.  If
the metal building team comes back and says they can do it cheaper with
fixed/fixed frames, tell the contractor its a change order because they
didn't conform to your drawings.

As a last resort (although it is really the best), tell the contractor to
sign the contract with the metal building guys.  What difference does it
make if they sign before or after there is a building permit?  If the
project is real, get the contractor to take the same risk you are.

Jake Watson, P.E.
Salt Lake City, UT

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Polhemus [mailto:bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc]
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:14 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Pre-Engineered Metal Building Foundation - Ballpark Design


Greetings.

I'm running into these kinds of jobs from time to time where a developer or
owner wants to proceed with a building which is all or part a metal
building, and needs as much engineering done as possible to get the building
permit, expedite the schedule, and sometimes even for financing.

So, we have an architect's plan, and it has been sent to the metal building
vendor(s) for a quote. We have a geotechnical report. And it's enough for me
to get about 80% done with the foundation, but what I'm finding is the metal
building guy doesn't want to bother with any sort of preliminary design,
understandably, because he doesn't even know if he's getting the contract.
So of course I have no reactions, no base plate dimensions, etc.

I have to explain to the contractor/owner/developer/whatever that I can get
"almost there" but not all the way, and they are puzzled because, of course,
they think all this stuff is just cook-book and only needed because they
can't get a permit without a sealed drawing. Most of the time they're
patient (with the subtext "man, these engineers are a hard bunch to deal
with"), although a few times they've been downright hostile ("I've never had
this problem before. Are you SURE you know what you're doing?")

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else sees this from time to time, and how you
deal with it?



William L. Polhemus, Jr. P.E.
Polhemus Engineering Company
Katy, TX, USA
Phone (281) 492-2251
FAX (281) 492-8203
email bill(--nospam--at)polhemus.cc



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