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Re: wine tanks

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Knowing almost nothing about seismic, and even less about wine tanks, I
would still be concerned about the worker or tourist in the vicinity of the
tanks during any kind of major event.  From a legal/liability standpoint, it
seems a very in-defensible position that someone chose tank failure as an
acceptable economic risk.  While someone else may bear the financial result,
it is the engineer who can lose his/her license.  More importantly, I would
not want to run the risk of having a death or injury on my conscience.

That's my 2 cents worth.

M. David Finley, P.E.
3810 South First Street - Suite 7
Lake City, FL  32025
386-752-6400

----- Original Message -----
From: "YI" <YI(--nospam--at)summit-sr.com>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: wine tanks


> I have also seen that happened before.  There are different ideas from the
> winery owners on how they want to secure the tanks, and deal with
different
> failure scenarios.  Some of these tanks are on a tank pad that's 2'-3'
above
> the slab-on-grade.  If the tanks moved toward edge of the pad, then worse
> thing could happen than just some mis-aligned tanks.
>
> If the tanks are fully restrained to the tank pad, then they will
definitely
> buckle, but the base will be intact.  As I mentioned before, the tanks are
> not designed to APA/AWWD or other industry standard codes like a water
tank
> or oil tanks.  It's a cost issue.  The cheaper tanks is justifiable by the
> possibility of losing a tank full of wine in every 10 years or so.  If
they
> have to build a tank farm of 20-30 tanks all like a bullet proof water
tank
> and such, then it would cost way too much.  There was a time when tank
> anchoring does not need a building permit, so we the engineer would tell
the
> client what choices he/she had.  Some of then choose to secure the tanks
by
> the building code (thus the tank will buckle), other choose to have
minimum
> anchors so the tanks will walk.  However it becomes issue when a building
> permit is required by the local jurisdiction, then we have to educate the
> building officials on why the tanks should or shouldn't be anchored
> properly.  It's hard to get a straight answer sometimes when a less
> knowledgeable building official is encountered.
>
> Y i   Y a n g  P. E.
> Summit Engineering Inc.
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Jordan [mailto:MattJ(--nospam--at)crjarch.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:07 AM
> To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org'
> Subject: RE: wine tanks
>
>
> regarding Mr. Yang's wine tanks,
>
> Coincidently just this past weekend I went on a tasting/ tour of a well
> known winery in the heart of zone 4. I was amazed when we got to the eight
> 25,000 gallon stainless tanks, almost all had the classic "elephants foot"
> bulging at the bottom of the tank, some even looked to have twisted! They
> look like someone stepped on a beer can. I'm guessing about 12-14 ft. dia.
> and 18-20 ft. tall. The guide explained that the tanks had been bolted
down
> and there was a 5-point something EQ in about 1985-86. He said some
"seismic
> experts" came out to investigate and said the tanks were OK to use and
that
> the damage probably occurred because they were bolted down. The experts
> recommended that ALL OF THE BOLTS BE CUT OFF. A couple years later ('89)
> loma prieta hit, centered less than 25 miles away. Most of the tanks moved
> (slid) on the concrete pad a few inches but NO further damage occurred to
> any of them. They are in use to this day (full), Not bolted, all
mis-aligned
> by a few inches!
>
> Matt Jordan, SE
>
>
>
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