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Re: wine tanks

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This is really interesting,  the current discussion puts a different
perspective on your earlier postings, particularly for someone who does not
typically work with tank structures.

My questions would be:

Is the basic stability of the tanks such that overturning is a non-issue?

What is the possibility of a winery worker or visitor being crushed between
tanks as they are allowed to walk around? (conversely, what is the
possibility of drowning or killing someone with the escaping liquid if the
tank splits?)

If the tank buckling makes the tank un-usable in the future, but the
distress prior to the onset of rupture and the inability of the tank to
relocate provides additional redundancy / safety for the surrounding
occupants, I would definitely think this is the way to go (properly
anchored).  The owner is already accepting the potential loss of a tank
every ten years or so by utilizing the cheaper tanks.  To compound the
dangers by trying to evaluate anchorage costs separately from the overall
costs seems irresponsible.


Paul Feather PE, SE
pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
www.SE-Solutions.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "YI" <YI(--nospam--at)summit-sr.com>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: wine tanks


> I have also seen that happened before.  There are different ideas from the
> winery owners on how they want to secure the tanks, and deal with
different
> failure scenarios.  Some of these tanks are on a tank pad that's 2'-3'
above
> the slab-on-grade.  If the tanks moved toward edge of the pad, then worse
> thing could happen than just some mis-aligned tanks.
>
> If the tanks are fully restrained to the tank pad, then they will
definitely
> buckle, but the base will be intact.  As I mentioned before, the tanks are
> not designed to APA/AWWD or other industry standard codes like a water
tank
> or oil tanks.  It's a cost issue.  The cheaper tanks is justifiable by the
> possibility of losing a tank full of wine in every 10 years or so.  If
they
> have to build a tank farm of 20-30 tanks all like a bullet proof water
tank
> and such, then it would cost way too much.  There was a time when tank
> anchoring does not need a building permit, so we the engineer would tell
the
> client what choices he/she had.  Some of then choose to secure the tanks
by
> the building code (thus the tank will buckle), other choose to have
minimum
> anchors so the tanks will walk.  However it becomes issue when a building
> permit is required by the local jurisdiction, then we have to educate the
> building officials on why the tanks should or shouldn't be anchored
> properly.  It's hard to get a straight answer sometimes when a less
> knowledgeable building official is encountered.
>
> Y i   Y a n g  P. E.
> Summit Engineering Inc.
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Jordan [mailto:MattJ(--nospam--at)crjarch.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:07 AM
> To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org'
> Subject: RE: wine tanks
>
>
> regarding Mr. Yang's wine tanks,
>
> Coincidently just this past weekend I went on a tasting/ tour of a well
> known winery in the heart of zone 4. I was amazed when we got to the eight
> 25,000 gallon stainless tanks, almost all had the classic "elephants foot"
> bulging at the bottom of the tank, some even looked to have twisted! They
> look like someone stepped on a beer can. I'm guessing about 12-14 ft. dia.
> and 18-20 ft. tall. The guide explained that the tanks had been bolted
down
> and there was a 5-point something EQ in about 1985-86. He said some
"seismic
> experts" came out to investigate and said the tanks were OK to use and
that
> the damage probably occurred because they were bolted down. The experts
> recommended that ALL OF THE BOLTS BE CUT OFF. A couple years later ('89)
> loma prieta hit, centered less than 25 miles away. Most of the tanks moved
> (slid) on the concrete pad a few inches but NO further damage occurred to
> any of them. They are in use to this day (full), Not bolted, all
mis-aligned
> by a few inches!
>
> Matt Jordan, SE
>
>
>
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