Need a book? Engineering books recommendations...

Return to index: [Subject] [Thread] [Date] [Author]

RE: EJCDC Documents (OR: What's The Point Of Even Joining ASCE?)

[Subject Prev][Subject Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Bill,

I must point out that I have never said that the price was fair.  I have
only maintained that it takes money to produce documents such as these
(and I am not talking about money paid to the volunteers who produce the
actual content...many organizations don't even cover travel expenses for
those volunteers to attend meetings).  I will concede that it is certainly
possible that some more cost efficient methods MAY be used to reduce the
costs of such publications or that the organizations MAY be charging more
than is really "fair" for such publications to fund other functions of the
organization, etc.  While I could have interpreted your comments wrong, my
point was aimed at the premise that you seemed to believe that ASCE should
be providing the EJCDC documents to members for no cost as a benefit of
being a member.

If it was necessary for such organizations to pay the voluteers for their
time, not to mention there travel expenses, then it is entirely likely
that $500 for the EJCDC documents would be considered cheap.

To be honest, $500 for the EJCDC documents seems a bit high to me.  But
then, I am fully willing to admit that I don't know enough of why the
amount has been chosen.  Even after working for such an organization
(which allowed me to see what kind of expenses such an organization has
versus the revenue, thus giving me some insight as to why things cost more
than what I may have thought), I realize that what may be true for ACI
(where  I worked) might be different for ASCE.  I do not mean to imply
that all the things that an organization like ACI or ASCE does that
requires revenue from the various sources (member dues, publications
sales, seminars, etc) are truely necessary.  Like the government, there
are certain programs/efforts done by ASCE (or others) that I may not argee
with that you may like, while other programs/efforts that you may not like
that I feel are valuable.  Ultimately, the difference between ASCE and the
goverment is that you can do something beyond trying to get changes
made...you can NOT be a member.  While you have this other option, it is
not the best option in some ways...if you are not a member of ASCE but
don't like their stand on the Masters degree as the first professional
degree for example, then it becomes more difficult for you to "fight"
implementation of such a policy.

Now I may be wrong, but from what I know of you (from past posts), you
seem to be someone who believes in capitalism/free market and smaller
government.  The latter does not really enter this little discussion, but
the former does.  Groups like ASCE and ACI are free market entities.
While they ARE non-profit, that does not mean that they are "money
free"...it still costs such organizations to function.  Thus, they offer
their "services" for what they deem a fair price such that they can still
operate, doing what "they" think that they feel is important.  You as a
consumer have the choice (for the most part) to buy or not buy their
"services".  Granted, in some situations your are essentially forced to
buy from them (i.e. ASCE 7, etc) to do your job, but for me that comes
under the label of "cost of doing business".  Do you think that doctors
like to have to pay thousands of dollar for medical equipment or for
liability insurance when that money could be going into their pockets?  Do
you think that I ever liked having to spend hundreds of dollars to buy
suits to work at larger A/E firms when I could realistically do my work in
T-shirts and shorts (as I am now)?  Do you think lawyers like to have to
pay money to buy case books/historys for them to use in researching case
history to be able to represent you or me when that money might be
"better" spent on buying them a new BMW?  I would say "NOPE" to all of the
above...but that is part of the cost of doing business.  And the cost of
doing business in my (and your) profession is that we must shell out some
pretty good money to buy codes and other reference material.  I have to
admit that it irritates me some when it seems that people want stuff for
free and seem to be willing to over look the fact that it cost money to
produce those things...just as I get irritated if a client were to expect
me to produce structural drawing for $10 an hour.  As I have said in the
past, you should be willing to try and look at things from different
perspectives since it is just possible that you (or I) don't see the whole
picture.  This is that same as when some architect or home owner can not
understand why they need to pay you $75 (or more) an hour to do some
engineering design for their house/project...they are looking at it from
one perspective that does not see the whole pricture or at least they
don't see you perspective.  In this case, you certainly have the right to
not want to pay $500 for the EJCDC documents and certainly have the right
to be irritated about it, but you should also realize that ASCE may have
some perfectly valid reason for charging that amount just as you have a
perfectly good reason for charging what you do to your clients even though
it probably irritates them and they may think that it is way too much.

Enough philosophical stuff for me today...my head is beginning to
hurt...how about some good discussion about moment-area method or
detailing requirements for deep R/C beams?

Respectfully,

Scott
Ypsilanti, MI

>
> So, $500 for a handful of MS WORD files is a fair price to you?
>
> With your attitude in mind, from here on out I intend to invoice the various
> organizations in which I participate for each and every hour that I spend in
> service to that organization.
>
> After all, time is money, especially when you are an independent consultant,
> and it takes TIME for my to drive to these meetings, sit and listen to the
> speakers, participate in their committees, or phone conferences, etc.
>
> So, as you say, the reality is that it takes MONEY to do those things, so
> I'm obviously justified in charging for my time.
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>



******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
* 
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers 
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To 
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you 
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted 
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web 
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org 
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********