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Re: Metal Building Notes and Other Gripes

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I accidentally deleted a portion of this thread from my mailbox, but I'll add a
couple things here.

I spoke with the metal building engineer, a really nice guy, actually, and we
sorted out most of the issues.  As it turns out, he designs the anchor bolts,
but doesn't supply them, for reasons well documented by Ryan Lawton, below.

My biggest problem with metal building manufacturers is anticipating their
design decisions and standard details.  If that industry could get some design
and detailing standards set in stone for the rest of us, it would go a long way
toward making my life easier.

-Keith Fix, PE

--- Paul Feather <pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net> wrote:
> I have been reading this thread with interest.  I typically will not get
> involved in Metal Building Projects, so my comments are form the "outside"
> so to speak, and not from any direct experience.
> 
> The single item that strikes me in the positions / communications from the
> metal building manufacturers is the point that you do not design and are not
> responsible for the anchor bolts that attach your buildings to the provided
> foundations.  This in my opinion is completely inappropriate.  If you do not
> design the anchor bolts, how do you design the base plates?  How can you
> separate yourself from the realities of whether or not the anchor bolts are
> pre or post installed?  If the end product is going to require
> post-installed anchors, the anchor bolt layout and the base plate need to be
> compatible with the capacities of post-installed systems, with all the
> spacing and embed requirements considered.  How do you know if your design
> requirements are even achievable?
> 
> It is one thing to provide an anchor bolt requirement with delineated force
> requirements to another engineer to enable the appropriate design of the
> foundation system.  It is quite another to design in a bubble and absolve
> yourself of any responsibility for how your structure is attached.  Even
> light pole manufacturers provide specific base plate and anchor bolt
> requirements, including size and embedment.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> Paul Feather PE, SE
> pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
> www.SE-Solutions.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Lawton" <RLawton(--nospam--at)americanbuildings.com>
> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Metal Building Notes and Other Gripes
> 
> 
> > Keith
> >
> > Although I cannot take credit for these specific notes you referenced, I
> can tell you I frequently add similar notes to my plans. Reason being is
> simple. A note is a way of documenting who is the responsible party for a
> given aspect of the building. Metal buildings have become so diverse in
> application and construction materials and what the metal building
> manufacture will provide has virtually remained the same, the skeleton
> primary and secondary steel. So what then happens is someone like yourself
> is hired lets say to design the tilt-up-shear walls, foundation, and act as
> the EOR. Since It is not in my scope to  design the shear walls or
> foundation, I must make clear by the way of some note that I and my company,
> are in no way responsible for ANY item that has not been designed by me, and
> is being handled by an outside party that I have no control over. These
> notes are designed as an "eye opener" lets say, so one is aware of what I
> and the company did and provided, to what somebody else does after they get
> the building or incorporation to my design. If God forbid something happens
> to this building, I need to have clear documentation in the court of law,
> for an average citizen, a jury lets say, of what I am responsible for and
> what you are responsible for. Also, there are many items, which need special
> attention that I will try to document in a note form for the EOR to
> recognize a potential problem. For instance, if we have a non-load bearing,
> non shear tilt-wall attaching to a sidewall of my building, there could be a
> problem with attachment of the two systems. Or if we go next to an existing
> building, I know what seismic separation is required from my building
> deflection, but who is responsible for determining the deflection of this
> existing building I know nothing about, and ultimately the total seismic
> separation required for both buildings. Point is, I can only take the ball
> so far, meaning there is a lot going on Im not made fully aware of and I
> have to disclaim the responsibility of these items. Ultimatel
> > designed parts from all the engineering firms involved with the project,
> and it is he who is responsible for the comparability of all these items for
> correct combined usage. These notes are not meant to make someones life
> hell, but to provide a clear understanding of what everyones responsibility
> is and what my scope of work included.
> >
> > The anchor bolt issue. I can tell you that I am designing the anchor bolts
> for shear and tension, but since we do not provide foundation services, we
> do not supply ABolts nor design foundations to handle the reactions. For
> most cases, the foundation is long been poured before my pieces of the
> puzzle are sent to the site.
> >
> > Hope I helped
> >
> > Ryan Lawton
> > Modesto, CA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> kefix(--nospam--at)yahoo.com 11/26/02 07:44AM >>>
> > I may be way off base here, and also very hot under the collar.  Please
> forgive
> > me if it shows.
> >
> > On a set of metal building shop drawings there are several notes with
> which I
> > have problems.  One of them reads:
> >
> > "In case of discrepancies between [Metal Building Manufacturer's]
> structural
> > steel plans and plans for other trades, [MBM's] shall govern ("Code of
> Standard
> > Practice for Steel Buildings and Bridges" in the AISC Manual Section
> 3.3)."
> >
> > My reading of this does NOT include metal building drawings, since Design
> > Drawings are part of the Contracts Documents, which do not include metal
> > building drawings.
> >
> > Most of these notes that anger me are clearly directed at the general
> > contractor, but this standard of practice makes it increasingly difficult
> to
> > work with metal building manufacturers.
> >
> > Also, I appear to be fighting a losing battle insisting Metal Building
> > Manufacturers design and supply anchor bolts.  It does not seem reasonable
> to
> > push design responsibility for building frame anchorage to another
> engineer who
> > must then interpret the numerous load combinations and determine those
> that
> > govern design.
> >
> > What I would like, if I am FORCED by an architect or design-build
> contractor to
> > incorporate a metal building into a building design, is to work on the
> > foundations only, and ignore the remainder of the building design.  But
> when I
> > begin thinking this through, it occurs to me that the metal building
> > manufacturer might as well do the foundation, too.  Is this the intention
> of
> > various metal building drawing notes and contracts: create an environment
> that
> > is hostile to consulting engineers?  For example:
> >
> > "[MBM] is responsible only for the structural design of the metal building
> > system it provides.  [MBM] or [MBM's] Engineer is not the Design
> Professional
> > or Engineer of Record for the Construction Project.  [MBM] is not
> responsible
> > for the design of any components or materials not provided by it or their
> > interface and connection with the metal building system."
> >
> > While reasonable on its face, the above note sets up a terrible situation
> for
> > general contractors and building owners, not to mention structural
> engineers.
> > Wherease is most projects we can design the building and then follow
> > construction progress to verify compliance, metal building drawings and
> design
> > practice is rapidly moving toward forcing engineers to continue their
> design
> > work after construction has begun.  If there are any delays, it becomes
> the
> > design engineers fault (even if the blame is eventually assigned
> elsewhere),
> > and our reputations are reduced.
> >
> > So far, I've come away clean, but I'm beginning to shy away from metal
> > buildings, despite their presumed cost advantages.
> >
> > I'm eager to hear what others, including engineers employed by metal
> building
> > manufacturers, have to say about these and similar issues.
> >
> > -Keith Fix, PE
> > -Little Rock, Arkansas
> >
> >
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