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RE: Pancake Breakfasts - Boy I'm hungry

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Gerard,

Your most recent post closes it for me.  I had interpreted your comment of
calling Stan's version of "networking" as "a favor for a favor" as an
implication that Stan had done something wrong/unethical/illegal (such a
comment directly implies that Stan did something for the politician and
directly got something back).  I also said that if I was putting words in
your mouth that I was apologizing in advance.  It appears from this post
that you never intented to suggest that Stan did something
wrong/illegal/unethical, which then means that it appears that I was
"putting words in your mouth".  In which case, I apologize again.  I would
have understood much better your intent if you had said "a favor for a
potential future favor".

End result...done in my mind.

HTH,

Scott
Ypsilanti, MI


On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Gerard Madden, SE wrote:

> This is the last post for me, I guess people stop seeing the point after
> a while.
>
> I have no proof of Stan doing anything illegal or unethical. I don't
> think I ever said that, I just said I don't like it, and wouldn't
> advocate that method of "Networking". It has the appearance of something
> that could easily be abused. It's called political favoritism.
>
> It's different. Raising money for someone to gain them influence in
> society (in this case, get them into office) and doing so representing a
> company, not a joe shmo American, creates a situation where the
> benefiting party (the candidate) feels grateful or indebted for the
> help. Without specifically cutting any deals before an election, it's is
> implied or understood that someday down the road, you will be rewarded
> for your efforts. The elected official has no obligation to return the
> gesture, but why wouldn't he do something to give his guy an edge over
> say someone who voted/supported for the other candidate. Soliciting your
> employees to "voluntarily" give to the campaign fund is shady to me. If
> I don't will we not a project and I will lose my job???
>
> So, if I run for mayor of Santa Clara, CA... and Stan Caldwell, raises
> 50 grand for me to win the election... when the new police station needs
> to get built, who am I going to "lean heavily toward" and tell my staff
> to "strongly consider"... Those people are pressured to make Mayor
> Madden happy, who is trying to help his "supporter" for his 50 grand
> fundraiser It's a cycle that most likely doesn't create the best
> situation for the public, whose money is being spent. Perhaps someone
> with more qualifications or a better design, is passed over to make the
> elected official happy.
>
> Now, if Stan would do this on his own as Stan Caldwell, Texan, without
> the backing of his firm (unless it's a not-for profit engineering firm
> (ummm...), I have no problem with that.
>
> Usually, RFP's are the ways government agencies go about selecting a
> qualified design team.
>
> The same people bitching about Unions influencing politics are praising
> stan, who is simply doing the same thing. Are engineers better than
> union workers??? I don't think so. The goal is to get someone in office
> who best represents your beliefs, do it as an American, not a
> corporation. That's being a citizen, not an engineering marketing
> man/woman.
>
> -gerard
> Santa Clara, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Effland, Greg [mailto:geeffland(--nospam--at)butlermfg.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:44 PM
> To: 'seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org'
> Subject: RE: Pancake Breakfasts - Boy I'm hungry
>
> As indicated in many posts I don't think that anything has been proven
> to be
> illegal or immoral from Stan's actions.
>
> A few questions for those that have jumped Stan for this supposed
> action.
>
> 1) Is this (pancake breakfast) any different than introducing himself to
> a
> potential client?  Other than the obvious expenditure of say maybe the
> small
> cost of the breakfast.  Wow I had better watch out if I buy someone a
> lunch??? Is McDonalds ok but AppleBees not... just where is that line
> at?
> What if the pancake breakfast offered frozen waffles in Stan's backyard?
>
> 2) If anyone is naive enough to think that at some level they don't
> participate in such events then they had better look in a mirror...
>
> Here are some examples of how "human interaction" can influence future
> decisions:
>
> 	Example 1: Ever get work done by a friend or past acquaintance
> because you knew them and thought you could trust them?  Car work,
> computer
> work, etc.
>
> 	Example 2: Ever go back to a good restaurant because they had
> good
> food or service?  Was their nice food or attitude immoral because they
> were
> trying to entice you back for future services or more money (tip)?  Ever
> tip
> a waiter/waitress because they provide good service?
>
> 	Example 3: Ever talk to someone hoping they would talk back.
> Was
> that enticing them to so that they would talk back to you?
>
> 	Example 4: Ever advertise some thing for sale or services
> available
> from your business?  Is this not a method of direct solicitation?
>
> 	Example 5: Did you ever send an e-mail soliciting/expecting a
> response?
>
> In my mind what Stan did do was :
> 	1) introduce himself to other people that at some time in the
> future
> may need services that Stan can provide.
> 	2) Give himself a chance a getting that work soley because
> someone
> knew he could do that work...  Ever have a stranger just walk up to you
> on
> the street and offer you money to provide a structural design??? doubt
> it...
> Why?  Because they don't know you can provide that service...
>
> What he did NOT DO:
> 	1) Automatically get the next job that official has his hands in
> 	2) Solicit any illegal activity
> 	3) Offer any services that he was not qualified to perform.
> 	4) Did not offer any money to the individuals... At least as far
> as
> I know he didn't give them a breakfast and a check for $xx dollars to
> insure
> future work.
>
> Wow, if introducing myself to a potential client (even if I don't know
> they
> could be a potential client) is immoral then I am in trouble.  I guess
> the
> moral people must be the ones that walk around with their head down
> ignoring
> everyone so they don't accidentally meet a potential client.  Are these
> the
> same ones that cut you off on the highway so that you won't think they
> are
> just being nice to solicit work?  Won't lend you a nickel at lunch time
> because that could be seen as favoritism... etc..
>
> Last but not least I would like to thank Stan for voicing his opinion
> and
> not regurgitating it a thousand times (don't think I have seen any reply
> e-mails to this topic from him in a while).
>
> My *personal* view,
> Greg Effland, P.E.
> KC MO
>
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