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SEA (was Sick Profession

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Dennis:

Who is SEA?  Do you mean NCSEA?  Do you mean SEAOC?  Do you mean SEAMi?
Do you mean SEAoT?

I have raise this issue with you before.  You continue to refer to SEA
"chapters" when you refer to organizations like SEAOC, which is incorrect.

In your other message, you advocate researching the issues (which I have
done with regards to the H1-B visa...I tend to preface my statements with
"so I understand" etc because that is exactly what it is...my
understanding of the issue based upon visiting various sites and reading
various sources of information...and I don't want someone to mistake my
understanding as being anywhere near an "expert" position...in otherwords,
I might not fully comprehend all the issues)...I suggest you follow your
own advice regarding "SEA".

There is no such thing.  There is NCSEA which is an organization of
organizations.  SEAOC, SEAMi, SEAoT, etc. _ARE NOT_ chapters of NCSEA.
NCSEA has (virtually) no control over what SEAOC, SEAMi, SEAoT, etc do.
SEAOC, et al, do _NOT_ derive their "power" from NCSEA.  In fact, it is
the other way around.  SEAOC, et al, are MEMBERS of NCSEA.

To be honest, this is a minor issue that does not really much deserve a
message about it.  But, you should realize that our profession does not
really have a national organization that DIRECTLY represents individuals
for the purpose of promoting the profession, like AIA does for architects
or ASCE does for the entire civil engineering profession.  NCSEA
represents a bunch of STATE (or area) organizations, not individual
engineers.  CASE represents ENGINEERING COMPANIES, not individual
engineers.  The closest is SEI, which does represent individual
engineers' interests, but is then to a certain degree "subservient" to
ASCE.  Now, each STATE organization (such as SEAOC, SEAMi, etc) do in fact
represent individual engineers.

My point in the post it to try and get you to realize that when you
advocate "SEA" to do something, that you are advocate something that is
not really possible.  You want "SEA" to support something, implying that
you want some national entity to step forward to represent the "common"
structural engineer.  Well, that national entity does not really exist.
NCSEA serves the wishes of its members, which are state organizations.

So, what I am try to say is that it is not a simple as you make it out to
be.  In many ways, there are little differences.  To proceed down the
road(s) that you advocate you have to convince the members of NCSEA (if
you want NCSEA to do something).  This means rather than just getting a
large number of engineers to actively push for something, you really need
to get that large number of engineers to push their STATE organizations
(who are members of NCSEA...not all are) to then push NCSEA to do
something.

Regards,

Scott
Ypsilanti, MI


On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Dennis Wish wrote:

> Excellent, Gail - you see the light behind the H-1B issues. Make the
> work undesirable and at low wages. This justifies the government
> requirements to satisfy application for H-1B employees and there is no
> shortage of H-1B staff.
>
> You got the nail on the head - congratulations. I only hope the rest of
> the community does not think you are nuts or a zealot or one of us
> bigots.
>
>
>
> Now the work needs to start. We need to organize committees within our
> own profession to establish working relationships between firms where
> everyone may benefit. It won't yield the same profit margins on all jobs
> that we want and we may be working for another firm at a percentage of
> what we advertise our rates, but it does insure consistent work between
> firms who are known to produce good work.
>
>
>
> Look, this is not an easy solution - it requires rules and it requires
> work ethics, but it certainly can be done.
>
>
>
> So who is willing to take a lead and will SEA support it. If SEA takes a
> stand on protecting jobs for engineers in the US by establishing working
> relationship between firms, I'll rejoin and pay dues.
>
>
>
> Dennis S. Wish, PE
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GSKWY(--nospam--at)aol.com [mailto:GSKWY(--nospam--at)aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 5:11 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Re: SICK PROFESSION
>
>
>
> Just some opinions - I can only speak for the DC area,  but structural
> engineers tend to earn must less than other "professional occupations."
>
>
>
> Within the structural engineering industry,  there are certain firms
> that are known for paying very low wages, or not providing very good
> benefits,  or not providing very good training, or having pretty
> undesirable working conditions.
>
>
>
> Although there are certainly exceptions, it is generally these firms
> that have to resort to H-1B hiring. Since their wages and benefits (and
> office cleaning expenses) are lower than other firms, they are often
> able to underbid other firms, at least on the surface.
>
>
>
> I can look at the databases, and knowing what certain offices are like,
> I know why they need to hire H-!B personnel. You can create a shortage
> for any kind of worker, simply by making the work undesirable in some
> way.
>
>
>
> None of the various databases I have seen are very complete (or up to
> date), but they do point out the trends.
>
>
>
>
>
> Gail Kelley
>
>




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