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Re: Regional permitting differences - calculations

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Peer review and Value Engineering are definitely not the same thing in my
neck of the woods.  Peer review is an engineering review by an independent
entity of equal qualification, reviewing the basic concepts, objectives, and
criteria proposed for a project with opinions and input on how well the
proposed design is meeting those criteria.  Additionally areas like adequate
detailing and drawing information and constructability may be a part of the
review.

Value Engineering may have once meant a similar process where the design is
reviewed for cost impact and constructability, but anymore in CA this is no
longer the case.  VE is the most miss-used term I know.  Typically it
amounts to "The design is over budget, where can we slash the costs by
reducing finish and material quality, eliminating architectural features,
and so-on..."  There is no "engineering" in VE.

The standard AIA contract scope for engineering services includes a VE
section after the Construction Document phase.  We insist this be removed
from all of our contracts and strive to educate our clients on how
in-appropriate this is.  The worst possible point to begin VE'ing a project
is when the design is complete.  Typically this will lead to the engineer
spinning their wheels eating up time trying to piece-meal fit contractor
substitutions and system changes.  Rarely are the substitutions fully
thought out regarding the impact on the other trades or the conflicts with
all the existing detailing.  This can lead to field conflicts and errors
with costly corrections.  As one of my professors in college used to define
the issue, it's "conservation of grief".  There are a finite number of
problems on a project and all you can do is shift them around to different
areas but never truly eliminate them.

The time to VE a project is during the Design Development phase and should
be controlled and conducted by the EOR.  Only by reviewing the options and
alternatives with a global perspective on how the modifications trickle
through the entire project can a truly "value-engineered" system be
developed.  Insist on adequate design development time in the project
schedule and set the design fee accordingly.  Early selected contractor
involvement can be invaluable, particularly on large scale projects.  The
extra 10k or 20k spent on real engineering can easily translate into 100k or
200k in actual construction cost savings.


Sorry to be so long winded, I guess I feel strongly about this issue. :-)

Paul Feather PE, SE
pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
www.SE-Solutions.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Kilgore" <jkilgore(--nospam--at)leok.com>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Regional permitting differences - calculations


> Sealed calculations are required for almost all government entities in the
> Kansas City, MO/KS area.  Also, the State of Missouri requires sealed
> calculations on State jobs.
>
> Peer reviews are called "Value Engineering" and are done only when the
> client requests and pays for it, or if a small one-person engineering firm
> wants some extra insurance.
>
> ----
> Jason Kilgore
> Leigh & O'Kane, L.L.C.
> jkilgore(--nospam--at)leok.com
> 816-444-3144
> 816-444-9655 (FAX)
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John C. Jones" <john(--nospam--at)struct-engr.com>
> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 4:45 PM
> Subject: Regional permitting differences - calculations
>
>
> >From the list I understand that calcs are submitted in addition to
drawings
> in California.  I know that Miami requires calcs from work I've done down
> there.  The only place in the Southeast that I have run across this is a
> county north of Atlanta.
>
> Where else are calculations required as part of the permitting process?
> How about peer review?  I have never run across this in the Southeast.
>
> John C. Jones, PE
> Barnett Associates
> Pell City, AL
> 205-884-5334
> 205-884-0099 (fax)
>
>
>
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