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Re: SE Tests

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Bill: Would you e-mail me a copy of that letter @shapton(--nospam--at)nwlink.com.  I
think I can find a few people who might want to let the board know how they
feel about it.
Thanks, Jack Shapton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott, William N." <William.Scott(--nospam--at)veco.com>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: SE Tests


> I have a letter from the Washington State Board that states that in
> Washington, an engineer may use the title "Structural Engineer" if they
feel
> they are competent.
>
> I wonder why Washington even issues an SE if it you may use the title
> without having an SE license.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Allen [mailto:T.W.Allen(--nospam--at)cox.net]
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:34 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: SE Tests
>
>
>
> Keith-
>
>
>
> You've either misunderstood me or we seriously disagree.
>
>
>
> Yes, I'm aware that once one passes a civil exam, s/he is legally allowed
to
> design anything within the realm of civil engineering.
>
>
>
> I totally disagree that, just because one passes an exam, one is deemed
> competent. There's evidence of that all over the place. I'm a good
example.
> In my civil exam, I solved the surveying question using math, not
surveying
> principles. I have NO CLUE of which end of a transit to look into. Yet,
I'm
> legally allowed to sign grading and drainage plans. So, if I take on a
> project, is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? In my opinion, no.
>
>
>
> You're wrong about someone who spends their apprenticeship in hydrology
> practicing structural engineering. They CAN here in CA. THAT'S the scary
> part.
>
>
>
> I have no problem with someone acquiring the necessary competency to
engage
> in a particular field of practice. I support that approach totally. Using
> the example above, suppose I decided that (gasp) I wanted to do grading
and
> drainage plans or just plain old surveying. So I decide to take a
refresher
> course in surveying principles, agree to take on a position as an
apprentice
> for a surveying firm, etc. until I (as well as others( think that I have
the
> necessary background to do it on my own, then I think it would be not only
> legal but ethical to take on such projects.
>
>
>
> With regards to legislating competency, I agree that's similar to
> legislating morality. Can't be done. But that doesn't mean negligence
can't
> be prosecuted after the fact. Consider this example. Suppose I went to a
> fine university, got good grades, then went immediately to work for a
large
> firm designing steel structures. I pass the P.E. exam the first time, and
> the S.E. exam the first time. Suppose I'm approached by an architect who
> needs some plans of a residence stamped and signed. The architect says he
is
> going to do the structural drafting, but he needs beam sizes, foundation
> sizes, shear walls and hold downs. Timber seems simple enough to me. After
> all, I've read Breyer's book. Pretty straight forward. Much simpler than
the
> complicated projects I do during the day. No problem. Fifteen hundred
bucks
> for some simple wood design? You've got to be kidding. Cha-Ching! I'll do
> that on my kitchen table. Of course, I don't realize the most important
part
> of wood design is the connections and I fail to provide a load path from
> roof to foundation (straps, etc.). If something goes wrong with this
> structure and I end up in court, you probably don't think I'm negligent
but
> I do!
>
>
>
> So we agree or disagree, I don't really care at this point.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
>
> V/F (949) 248-8588
>
> San Juan Capistrano, CA
>
> http://members.cox.net/ballense/ <http://members.cox.net/ballense/>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith De Lapp [mailto:keith(--nospam--at)kdlengineering.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:58 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: SE Tests
>
>
>
> Bill, you're really scaring me here!  Engineering is a marketplace.  The
> client is not a guinea pig.  Haven't you ever had a client who didn't
fully
> appreciate the value of the service you provide and decided to hire
another
> professional for less money.  Hell yes you have!  For the purposes of
> keeping your fees up, you can't limit competition by claiming an ipso
facto
> threshold for competence.
>
>
>
> You're wrong about competence and licensing.  When you pass the test and
the
> state issues you a license, you are deemed competent at least to the
extent
> demonstrated by having successfully solved the test questions you
responded
> to.  This doesn't mean of course the engineer who spent their
apprenticeship
> in hydrology can practice in the structural discipline or vice versa.  But
> it also doesn't preclude an engineer from acquiring the necessary
competency
> to protect life and safety when left to their own devices.
>
>
>
> As for civil engineering being to broad.  I believe that civil is no
> different from mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, nuclear,
> petroleum, and yes structural engineering.  I'll bet you lunch at your
> favorite restaurant that there are as many subsets of expertise in
> structural as there are in civil.  When we take into consideration the
many
> material factors that influence even the simplest design, it can very
> quickly extend us beyond our base of practical experience and competence.
> Our ability to adapt and respond to these competency situations varies
from
> engineer to engineer.
>
>
>
> I know licensed engineers who have never done a rigid diaphragm analysis,
a
> grade beam on an elastic foundation analysis, a perforated shear wall
design
> or even know what a masonry boundary member is.  I recognize the
competition
> for what it is, and explain to the client that engineering is a market
place
> just like buying tires for your vehicle.  I ask the client "when shopping
> for tires, do you buy the tires that cost the least amount of money?"  And
> then C
>
>
>
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