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RE: SE Tests

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Scott-

Yes.

How's that for a concise answer :o)?

Of course detailing is important in ANY structure. I have always
contended that providing a continuous load path from roof to foundation
is more important than the accurancy or magnitude of the design loads.

My scenarios were hypothetical (although I'm sure it's happened).

One other point. I don't want you, Keith or anyone else to have the
wrong impression that I'm talking about SE's vs CE's. I'm not. When I
say Civil Engineer I'm referring to what my wife calls Civil/Civil, not
Civil/Structural. I know many, many CEs who do great structural
engineering work and I know some SEs who I wouldn't trust on any type of
project. My comments apply equally to CEs and SEs.

My scenario was more like your last case, where the designer doesn't
think detailing is important in a residence or doesn't have a clue about
all the connection hardware.

Personally, I think detailing in steel is fairly easy with the exception
of moment frames in high seismic areas. Of course, being out of the
industry for a while, I'm sure some of my colleagues will disagree. I
also recall from my concrete years that concrete detailing was pretty
easy, once you got all the bars to pass through the same space and had
them all tied together :o). When I first started doing timber design, I
was blown away by the amount of detailing that was required for such a
"simple" material. After it all, it's just a stick house, right?

Regards,

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
V/F (949) 248-8588
San Juan Capistrano, CA
http://members.cox.net/ballense/

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
:Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 1:31 PM
:To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
:Subject: RE: SE Tests
:
:Bill:
:
:Not to belabor the point since I figure your are out enjoying the nice
:weather but...I have a slight issue with your example.
:
:Please explain to me how someone who designs "complex steel" projects
:during the day (presumambly in a high seismic zone since your mention a
SE
:license) would fail to realize the importance of connection details and
a
:good load path from roof to foundation.  Are you implying that such
things
:are NOT important in complex steel projects?  I would doubt it.  Thus,
:this theoretical SE that designs complex steel projects during the day
:knows full well the importance of such things and would realize the
same
:would apply for a wood structure.  Or said SE doesn't realize it for
wood
:cause he/she also doesn't realize it for his/her steel projects and has
:just copied other people's work at the large A/E firm without really
:understanding, which would mean that said SE is NOT competent and make
me
:wonder how he/she passed the California SE exam.  Or said SE
understands
:such items importance for both steel and woods design, but just figures
:"ah, it is just a wood residential structure...it is not important
enought
:to worry about such things"...in which case, he/she is not what I would
:call ethical.
:
:The point is that things like importance of ductile detailing,
:connections, and proper load paths are basically indepentent of the
:structural material.  The difference is how to achieve those things in
the
:different materials...that is where someone not familiar with a
particular
:material can get tripped up.
:
:Regardless, you point is still received...
:
:Regards,
:
:Scott
:Ypsilanti, MI
:
:
:On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Bill Allen wrote:
:
:>
:> With regards to legislating competency, I agree that's similar to
:> legislating morality. Can't be done. But that doesn't mean negligence
:> can't be prosecuted after the fact. Consider this example. Suppose I
:> went to a fine university, got good grades, then went immediately to
:> work for a large firm designing steel structures. I pass the P.E.
exam
:> the first time, and the S.E. exam the first time. Suppose I'm
approached
:> by an architect who needs some plans of a residence stamped and
signed.
:> The architect says he is going to do the structural drafting, but he
:> needs beam sizes, foundation sizes, shear walls and hold downs.
Timber
:> seems simple enough to me. After all, I've read Breyer's book. Pretty
:> straight forward. Much simpler than the complicated projects I do
during
:> the day. No problem. Fifteen hundred bucks for some simple wood
design?
:> You've got to be kidding. Cha-Ching! I'll do that on my kitchen
table.
:> Of course, I don't realize the most important part of wood design is
the
:> connections and I fail to provide a load path from roof to foundation
:> (straps, etc.). If something goes wrong with this structure and I end
up
:> in court, you probably don't think I'm negligent but I do!
:>
:
:
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