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RE: Title of "Engineer" - California's Facilities Engineers

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California has a similar rule for individuals in the practice of
engineering, however, I believe that there is a distinction between
those who provide a pseudo-engineering practice within a larger
organization that can be either engineering related (such as an
apprentice job under an actual engineer) and one in which the term
engineer is nothing more than a maintenance person.

My training in California started in a facilities engineering group
within a large Aerospace industry. My title was facility engineer, but
what good would it do as I could not stamp drawings for remodeling of
the plant that required me to submit drawings to the County of Los
Angeles. Instead, it was a stepping stone as my direct supervisor of the
division was a Civil Engineer (who flew with Howard Hughes on the Spruce
Goose). I attended school and while I was learning engineering, I was
also hiring engineers like the late (and most amazing) Eugene Birnbaum
(sorry about the spelling) who taught me a lot (including how to stick a
spoon on my nose). The point is that I got to work with some talented
people on the outside who helped me to understand the principles of
engineer. I believe that the title of Facility Engineer still exists and
limits the scope of work that one can do to within the limits of the
"Facility" and can be the experience or apprenticeship one needs to
become a PE in California. The building I worked on most was the largest
redwood building in the world - the building that Howard Hughes
assembled the Spruce Goose. What a history!

Then there is the maintenance engineer - different for the industry that
it serves but in many cases nothing more than a repair man or
maintenance person to haul out garbage or materials.

Sure doesn't make you feel too secure to be working in an industry where
a Civil Engineer who practices on everything but schools, hospitals and
buildings over five stories can't introduce themselves as a structural
engineer. Go figure - I spend time with each potential client making
sure they understand what they are hiring. In most cases it is no
problem, but in some cases the thought that I am anything less than a
structural engineer scares them off. They usually come back - not being
able to find a structural engineer willing to take their project or not
having the time for residential wood framing.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Kilgore [mailto:jkilgore(--nospam--at)leok.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 2:47 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Title of "Engineer"

In Missouri Law:

"327.181. Practice as professional engineer defined. -- Any person
practices
in Missouri as a professional engineer... [blah blah blah] ...or who
uses
the title "professional engineer" or consulting engineer" or the word
"engineer" alone or preceded by any word indicating or implying that
such
person is or hold himself or herself out to be a professional engineer,
or
who shall use any word or words, letters, figures, degrees, titles or
other
description indicating or implying that such person is a professional
engineer or is willing or able to practice engineering."

Reading the above, I understand that the use of the word "engineer" is
regulated.  According to the court in Pennsylvania, it's only regulated
if
the title implies the offer of engineering services.

All of the construction "project engineers" that I have met have been
either
PE's or EIT's.  Otherwise, they go by the title of "project manager".

Conversely, I can look in the paper and see classified ads for "Building
Maintenance Engineers".  An "Engineer" is the common term for a train
driver.  And the tongue-in-cheek title for a garbage collector is a
"sanitation engineer".

----
Jason Kilgore
Leigh & O'Kane, L.L.C.
Kansas City, Missouri



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