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RE: Connections

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Roger
I disagree.  Most shop drawings have engineering in them--size and 
length of welds, no of bolts, edge distance for tear-out, etc.
Fotunately most of this is pre-engineered in the AISC or CISC 
handbook.  However, most shops i.e detailers, these days don't know 
these books inside out and often err- they don't know minimum weld
sizes, for example, a lot of engineers also don't know these.  That 
is why we have to check shop drawings.
Seldom do I check drawings without having to red-line something.
Gary

On 1 Dec 2003 at 16:28, Roger Turk wrote:

> Scott,
> 
> Since shop drawings are instructions to the shop, and have *no*
> engineering involved in them at all, they do not need to be and should
> not be sealed.  Shop drawings are *not* design or engineering
> drawings.
> 
> Engineering calculations and engineering drawings, whether performed
> by the project's structural engineer or delegated to a fabricator, and
> involve determining what is necessary to resist loads and forces, are
> required to be sealed.  If the "intent" of the working drawings is to
> have the fabricator design some aspect of the product, then the
> engineering calculations and the engineering drawings reflecting that
> design need to be sealed by the person responsible for the design. 
> Shop drawings are then prepared from the engineering drawings, so that
> the shop can cut, drill, assemble, weld, etc., the product in the shop
> for transportation to the jobsite and erected in accordance with
> erection drawings.  Erection drawings that just show where the pieces
> that come out of the shop are placed do not need to be sealed unless
> they involve engineering.  Erection drawings remove all the clutter
> that normally is on working drawings and shows just the product to be
> erected.
> 
> I refer you to AISC's "Detailing for Steel Construction" for examples
> of the differences between engineering drawings, erection drawings,
> and shop drawings.
> 
> Do not confuse bidding/construction documents with engineering
> drawings prepared by the fabricator.  Do not confuse shop drawings
> with any other drawing prepared by either the fabricator or the
> project structural engineer.
> 
> I think that a lot of fabricators rely on most architects and
> engineers not knowing what the difference is between shop, erection
> and engineering drawings and submit only erection or engineering
> drawings instead of shop drawings.
> 
> A. Roger Turk, P.E.(Structural)
> Tucson, Arizona
> 
> Scott Haan wrote:
> 
> . > I was calling engineering drawings = plans.  I agree.  My point
> was the . > engineer is responsible for design intent on the
> engineering drawings . > and if connections are not on engineering
> drawings then who is . > responsible for design intent for connections
> if the state does not . > require the detailer to have an engineering
> license. 
> 
> . > Alaska state law exempts specialty contractors preparing "shop
> drawings" . > from the practice of engineering.  This would appear to
> mean that . > connections do not need to be engineered, if the
> engineer chooses not to . > show connections on the plans.  My belief
> would be that the intent of . > the state law is for connections to be
> engineered by someone.  
> 
> . > Do other states exempt people preparing shop drawings from the
> practice . > of engineering? If exempted and the local practice is for
> is for the . > engineer of record to not design connections, who is
> engineering the . > connections?
> 
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