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RE: Schooling (was Connections)

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David,

What you don't want to say Notre Dame?  I have no problem, but then I went
to Michigan so hating/bashing ND is second nature! <grin>

There is a BIG difference between drafting and sketching (at least to me).
Drafting impies some precision on things like the drawing scale (i.e. it
is drawn to scale) and that it is in a contract document level of
presentation (i.e. it is perfectly clear and looks NIIIIIICE).  Sketching
can be a drawing that has absolutely NO scale and looks like crap but
clearly shows the intent.  Now, in my case, since I am extremely anal, my
sketching looks an awful like drafting in most cases.

The point is that virtually EVERYONE should be able sketch (even
engineers who typically have no artistic ability)...it might look like
crap, but they can probably do it.  Now, whether or not someone will KNOW
what to put in the sketch is a completely other matter.  And THAT is what
a school should be teaching engineering grads (within limits).  For
example, a engineering grad should be able to sketch a double angle
connection of a beam to a column flange (or web) or a cross-section of a
concrete T-beam with location of longitudinal steel and stirrups.  But, I
certainly would not EVER expect a recent grad to be able to sketch EVERY
possible connection/section, just because they likely have no exposure to
90+% of such engineering situations.  That is what on the job training is
for (schools can possibly cover ever possible scenario).

But, a recent grad should be able to size steel beams (definitely
non-composite and really should be able to do composite too, but no all
universities cover composite beams in their steel courses...Michigan did
not really cover that in the basic steel course), steel columns, steel
tension members, basic steel connection, basic concrete beams (flexure
and shear and maybe torsion), concrete columns (axial and axial/1 axis
moment at minimum, but even bi-directional moments possibly), possibly
one-way slabs (maybe even two-way slabs using direct design), do basic
analysis by hand (i.e. simple supported beam, statically determinate
structures, bending momnet/shear diagrams for such, and even basic
deflection calculations for simple/statically determinate members) and
understand what computer analysis programs do (i.e. stiffness/flex
method).  Ideally, it would be good if they could also do basic wood and
masonry design, but that is not too likely as most schools don't offer
those courses.  But, in all cases, these situations would be the most
basic structural problems...add to much complexity, and it is reasonable
that they stumble some.

Regards,

Scott
Ypsilanti, MI


On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, David L. Fisher wrote:

> Well Scott:
>
>
> Then someone needs to inform a certain private college (with their own TV
> network)
> in Northern Indiana that they have failed.
>
> I hired a grad from this institution and he was unable to size a beam.
>
>
> With all due respect, I have to disagree with you on the drafting points...
>
> If we, as engineers can't convey our designs graphically, then we're sunk.
>
> Being a "pure" CE from a Big Ten University, I was required to take classes
> in drafting structural plans
> And was required in steel and concrete design classes to produce design
> sketches
> As part of assignments and to complete my thesis.
>
>
> Additionally, those individuals who graduate from Arch. Engineering programs
> (e.g., Penn State, Kansas State, et. al., )
>
> are able to draft at least at some basic level and draw a sketch.
>
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher, SE, PE
> Director
> Head of Design and Construction
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd.
> 75 Fort Street
> Georgetown, Grand Cayman
> British West Indies
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:32 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)
>
> David:
>
> >
> > Sizing a beam
>
> If can't do that, then the school failed.
>
> > Drafting a framing plan
>
> Ah, personally I did not go to college to learn to be a drafter/CAD
> operator, so I don't necessarily see this as a universities
> responsibility.  At best, I should know what a framing plan LOOKS like
> after graduating.
>
> > Drafting a structural detail
>
> See previous comment.
>
> > Hand drawing a sketch
>
> Again, not the point of going to a university.  I can teach any high
> school student to draw a hand sketch.  What I want is the structural
> engineering grad to KNOW what needs to go on the drawing (within limits).
> While it is nice for engineers to know how to do such stuff, frankly you
> are wasting your clients money (and your potential profits) if you are
> paying engineers to draft.  But that is your choice.  I would rather be
> paying them to ENGINEER/DESIGN.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott
> Ypsilanti, MI
>
>
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