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RE: Schooling (was Connections)

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Mr. Lowen:

With all due respect, I beg to differ on the "engineers drafting" issue.

I've worked in both kinds of environments:

Big A/E firms with "draftspeople" and small/medium sized firms where the
SE's draft as well as design.

Based on my experience, the second method consistently produced better
quality documents.

Personally, I feel the never ending cycle of "mark-ups" between SE and
draftsperson results in far more
Overall time being spent to often, not even get to the same place as the
second method.


That being said, I've also had the extreme pleasure to work with
"draftspeople" (both by hand and on CAD)
That were excellent at what the did, they could layout a framing plan and
draw the structural sections and details
As good as any engineer could.


Unfortunately, those individuals were/are few and far between.




David L. Fisher, SE, PE
Director
Head of Design and Construction

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd.
75 Fort Street
Georgetown, Grand Cayman
British West Indies

-----Original Message-----
From: Lowen, Dave [mailto:Dave.Lowen(--nospam--at)amkc.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:16 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)

I think gents, you have come to the crux of the matter.

Engineering firms are in the business of providing drawings for others to
work from. Engineers must know what is on those drawings, and why. They
must, at the very least, be able to read drawings.

I agree that paying an engineer to draw is a waste of talent and money, but
in my experience, there are far too many engineers who cannot draw, sketch
or interprate drawings. They simply leave that task to the cad jockeys and
many of them don't know what is required either.

I would ask all list members to log onto steel-detail(--nospam--at)yahoogroups.com and
ask any of my 1200 peers exactly what they think of your work, if you dare.

Regards,
Dave

 -----Original Message-----
From:   David L. Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com]
Sent:   Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:31 PM
To:     seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject:        RE: Schooling (was Connections)

Well Scott:


Then someone needs to inform a certain private college (with their own TV
network)
in Northern Indiana that they have failed.

I hired a grad from this institution and he was unable to size a beam.


With all due respect, I have to disagree with you on the drafting points...

If we, as engineers can't convey our designs graphically, then we're sunk.

Being a "pure" CE from a Big Ten University, I was required to take classes
in drafting structural plans
And was required in steel and concrete design classes to produce design
sketches
As part of assignments and to complete my thesis.


Additionally, those individuals who graduate from Arch. Engineering programs
(e.g., Penn State, Kansas State, et. al., )

are able to draft at least at some basic level and draw a sketch.




David L. Fisher, SE, PE
Director
Head of Design and Construction

Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd.
75 Fort Street
Georgetown, Grand Cayman
British West Indies

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:32 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)

David:

>
> Sizing a beam

If can't do that, then the school failed.

> Drafting a framing plan

Ah, personally I did not go to college to learn to be a drafter/CAD
operator, so I don't necessarily see this as a universities
responsibility.  At best, I should know what a framing plan LOOKS like
after graduating.

> Drafting a structural detail

See previous comment.

> Hand drawing a sketch

Again, not the point of going to a university.  I can teach any high
school student to draw a hand sketch.  What I want is the structural
engineering grad to KNOW what needs to go on the drawing (within limits).
While it is nice for engineers to know how to do such stuff, frankly you
are wasting your clients money (and your potential profits) if you are
paying engineers to draft.  But that is your choice.  I would rather be
paying them to ENGINEER/DESIGN.

Regards,

Scott
Ypsilanti, MI


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