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RE: Schooling (was Connections)

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Paul

Throughout this thread, we have discussed the general lack of  quality in today's contract documents. There are firms out there that know exactly what to do, what to draw and how a structure is built.
I would go so far as to say their drawings are a joy to look at and a pleasure to work from. I have a set of structural and civil drawings for the SFOBB rehab and they fall into this category. It is simply unfortunate that receiving proper documents has become the exception rather than the rule.

This situation is so evident that members of the detailing list publish the name of the engineering firm that produces exemplary documents, which tends to make other members jealous. Some have even boasted of lowering their bid in order to work from decent drawings for a change. Now that is a sad indictment.

Regards,
Dave

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Paul Feather [mailto:pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net] 
Sent:	Friday, December 05, 2003 1:49 PM
To:	seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject:	Re: Schooling (was Connections)

Dave,

I have been fortunate to have a long and extended design build relationship
with a quality steel fabrication / erection firm.  Through this relationship
I have had many discussions with the steel detailers, fabricators, and the
erection crews.  It has been one of the most educational relationships of my
career.  I have also had the opportunity to work with some of the older
detailers whose knowledge of engineering and construction is humbling to a
lowly engineer such as myself.  Unfortunately this is a dying art and the
quality of detailing is much in decline, particularly with all the
out-sourcing, but this is another topic.

Over the course of years, I have had many opportunities to see and listen to
the problems and complaints from working project drawings produced by a
multitude of my competitors, many with "prestigious engineering firm"
reputations.  Much of what is presented as "For Construction" drawings are
complete crap lacking necessary information and detail with inconsistencies
that are frankly embarrassing for me as member of the engineering
profession, and they are not MY drawings.

I would only dare to approach the detailing list with the question you pose
with the qualification that they have to be commenting on work produced by
my firm :-)

As one of my mentors once explained to me " the prettiest most thorough
calculations in the world don't mean a thing if the information isn't
correctly shown on the drawings".  The drawings are our work product.
Engineers have to know how to present their design.  We do not have
engineers drawing in CAD, but they better be able to redline a plan and
ensure all the information is correct and complete.

Paul Feather PE, SE
pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
www.SE-Solutions.net
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lowen, Dave" <Dave.Lowen(--nospam--at)amkc.ca>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)


> I think gents, you have come to the crux of the matter.
>
> Engineering firms are in the business of providing drawings for others to
work from. Engineers must know what is on those drawings, and why. They
must, at the very least, be able to read drawings.
>
> I agree that paying an engineer to draw is a waste of talent and money,
but in my experience, there are far too many engineers who cannot draw,
sketch or interprate drawings. They simply leave that task to the cad
jockeys and many of them don't know what is required either.
>
> I would ask all list members to log onto steel-detail(--nospam--at)yahoogroups.com and
ask any of my 1200 peers exactly what they think of your work, if you dare.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: David L. Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:31 PM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)
>
> Well Scott:
>
>
> Then someone needs to inform a certain private college (with their own TV
> network)
> in Northern Indiana that they have failed.
>
> I hired a grad from this institution and he was unable to size a beam.
>
>
> With all due respect, I have to disagree with you on the drafting
points...
>
> If we, as engineers can't convey our designs graphically, then we're sunk.
>
> Being a "pure" CE from a Big Ten University, I was required to take
classes
> in drafting structural plans
> And was required in steel and concrete design classes to produce design
> sketches
> As part of assignments and to complete my thesis.
>
>
> Additionally, those individuals who graduate from Arch. Engineering
programs
> (e.g., Penn State, Kansas State, et. al., )
>
> are able to draft at least at some basic level and draw a sketch.
>
>
>
>
> David L. Fisher, SE, PE
> Director
> Head of Design and Construction
>
> Cape Cod Grand Cayman Holdings Ltd.
> 75 Fort Street
> Georgetown, Grand Cayman
> British West Indies
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:32 AM
> To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: RE: Schooling (was Connections)
>
> David:
>
> >
> > Sizing a beam
>
> If can't do that, then the school failed.
>
> > Drafting a framing plan
>
> Ah, personally I did not go to college to learn to be a drafter/CAD
> operator, so I don't necessarily see this as a universities
> responsibility.  At best, I should know what a framing plan LOOKS like
> after graduating.
>
> > Drafting a structural detail
>
> See previous comment.
>
> > Hand drawing a sketch
>
> Again, not the point of going to a university.  I can teach any high
> school student to draw a hand sketch.  What I want is the structural
> engineering grad to KNOW what needs to go on the drawing (within limits).
> While it is nice for engineers to know how to do such stuff, frankly you
> are wasting your clients money (and your potential profits) if you are
> paying engineers to draft.  But that is your choice.  I would rather be
> paying them to ENGINEER/DESIGN.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott
> Ypsilanti, MI
>
>
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