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RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential

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Please, I stopped reading your comments at the mention of racism. I resent this insinuation and am emphatically NOT a racist. I don’t wish to be insulting, but I have spoken up for anyone who disagrees, but it is so easy in today’s world to stick that same label that said Made in China on the speak with the label “Racist Views”. The “Made in China” was a label inside the shoes that implied that this company took the assembly process of the shoe industry that supported thousands of Americans working for American owned companies, to a location in the world was only a fraction of our wages. The Chinese don’t own these industries, the investors who vote for who will sit on the board of directors, CFO and CEO are of all cultures of the world.  My comments were intended to suggest that I would not choose to purchase products from COMPANIES that laid off or took the life’s work away from those who relied on the income for a living wage and gave it to those who would do the same job for not a competitive wage but by selling themselves short. Working for less than 10% of American wages is not fair competition, nor is it done on a level field. In fact, if you think my ideology will destroy this country in 30-years, the loss of work by Americans who can not recover equal wages and benefits will reduce our country to one of the poorest in much less than 15-years.


Let me make this perfectly clear – I am not blaming nor do I believe it is the fault of the Chinese that American companies or newer Multi-Nationals found a low wage resource willing and eager to do the work for no benefits, a fraction of the fair labor rate and dissimilar working conditions (this I know more from the work outsourced to Mexico rather than that to China). It is the fault of the investors of the corporations  who opened their plant in China and care little for the displaced people in other countries (and this includes industries lost in other countries than the U.S.),


Your arguments come from the biased position that those on the receiving end deserve to benefit from the wealth achieved in this country off the backs and foundations of American workers. You use some unwritten philosophy you label as “Survival of the Fittest” – but this refers to war and to animals – not intelligent thinking people in civilized society. We don’t screw our brethren out of work – we compete at fair but competitive wages and equivalent benefits.  From my perspective, your comments are biased toward the need to take labor away simply because China is hungry and in poverty in those areas that these industries would help the people. But these corporations are not there to help you any more than those who worked on the Japanese philosophy that the company was a family and you choose your family whom you worked for most of your life. Those times are gone and all that was left was debt without the ability to repay it.  Once again, if you want to compete against us through the core of a multi-national company, then value your worker closer to that of Americans rather than selling yourself short. China won’t do this because they know and fear that the Multi-National will seek another country who is willing to sell short their people and their values.


Do you feel it is racist for me to suggest that China expect more for their workers that includes decent working conditions, health care, benefits similar to those paid in the US?  How about the ability to buy land, build or purchase a home, apartment or condo? What about paying for your children’s education in a Capitalistic society where socialism is not the basis of government. I am neither a socialist nor am I a communist – but in Capitalistic societies we may be more socialized by understanding that taking work at the expense and harm to people who suffer at the loss is not acceptable. Here, it is akin to walking into my home and robbing me blind.


I hope the logic hits you that China’s success is short lived - only as long as the cost of labor does not rise or the demand for benefits to support ones family does not force the benefactor to seek another location to relocate his plant. Capitalism is desired by most countries until they discover that Capitalism also includes greed and desires to step over anyone in order to seek profit for those who own a business or who answer to investors,


Finally, how can one who lives in a country populated by people from all cultures and who speaks to protect the wages of people from all cultures in this one  country (and suggest that those in other countries such as Canada) be accused of racism? How many people of other cultures occupy Asia with the exception of the British occupations that have left China in 1997? How many melting pots are there in the world were cultures relocate to become citizens in order to obtain the one main goal that brought them here in the first place – the American dream of wealth and ownership of property?  I think the idea of speaking my mind and being accused of racism is insulting and I hope that you see your misdirection and possibly personal bias against a Capitalist who believes in “Fair Trade” which means a level and equal playing field..



Dennis S. Wish, PE

One of Russian Jewish decent.


-----Original Message-----
From: Aswin Rangaswamy [mailto:aswinpe(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 5:02 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: Re: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential


Hello Dennis:


I am one of those people who sometimes take the time to read your posting (rather long quite often) and I do appreciate your long posting which most of the time makes sense.  But of all the posting you have had I feel that this is one of your worst comments which seems to brings out a little bit of racism.  I was of the opinion that you were trying to save the profession from going overseas but it seems to be more deeper than that.  I would not mind if you had said that the quality was bad but no, it was the "made in china" that got you. 


Even in the most "made in USA" products some of the parts are sometimes exported and put together in the US.  I am unsure if that is a loop hole in the labeling.


Would you refuse a client who is Chinese too because he is made in China???  Do you not design houses for people of other nationality.  Were all your professors Americans too?  Come-on Dennis get a grip of things.  You probably defend these by saying that these are not overseas jobs.  But my point is most of the first generation people were not "MADE in USA". 


One of the best things about the US culture is the diversity which I have appreciated all these years and I hope you don't corrupt other peoples minds.


SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.  That should be the way of thinking.  There are several programmer who have lost their jobs due to out-sourcing and do you know why some have not found a job - they have not gone with the flow.  The ones not finding jobs (in my experience) are the ones who did not acquire new knowledge, did not want to be re-molded, did not want to move around.  This will definitely happen to our profession too.  The best way in my opinion is not by condemning foreigners or overseas jobs but to make good use of the opportunity. 


Do you think US went down the drain once the manufacturing jobs were lost to companies abroad.  No, US is still one of the wealthier countries in the world.  Americans are smart enough to find new ways to make new things out of nothing.  The people (I am talking about the FITTEST) who got laid off in manufacturing got training and had to change career. 


It is quite normal for companies to move their office location due to the cost of running business.  Even an one man shop might move to a different city if the office space he rents becomes too expensive.  This was unthinkable 50 years back due to limited transportation.  Well here comes GLOBALIZATION.  Now with the new trends in communication any company can work across the globe.


I have been working in the US for over 10 years.  With the advent of globalization, if there comes  an excellent opportunity that I could work from across the globe, I might even do that. 


It is probably time that you throw out the computer that you have been using to write these words.  Because I bet you anything, it is not completely made in the USA.  Most of the components are made abroad.  Most of the software that you see are also made abroad.  As you might know, Microsoft has a huge development office in India.  But what you did not know is that Microsoft and other major firms conduct job fairs in the US to recruit people to head their office abroad.


Have you had a chance to look into everything that you have in the house - is everything made in USA.  I could go on and on but it would be a non-stop argument.


To sum it all - I personally feel that this comment of your is ridiculous.  I hope this "virus" does not spread among our intelligent SE community who have developed this amazing portal called the SEAINT (denoting SEA International) where SEs from across the globe access and share information.  Please take a minute to think through a few things and get a better perspective of the world around you before you put them in writing.


Aswin Rangaswamy, P.E.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Wish

Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 10:36 PM

Subject: RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential


My wife ordered a pair of shoes for me and the label said made in China – I returned the shoes. Then I looked at the shoes we bought at the mall – Hush Puppies. Again, made in China but now its too late for me to take them back (I’ve had them for a month and never checked the label). My wife told me that Dexter makes shoes in the U. S. and I asked her to go with me to find Dexter. If this is what it takes, I am starting to pay more attention – I only hope it’s not too late.