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RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential

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Bill,

I don’t want the debate either – it is a difference of opinion. However, I recent (and not by you) being considered a racist for my views when protectionism includes protecting all workers made up of the melting pot that comprises America. What I don’t see from your side is reasons why you and others believe that global trade is good for us. I am not asking you to respond, but others of similar mind might suggest proof of this. As for freespeech(--nospam--at)whatever.com, I guess the majority believe it is best to discuss these issues here rather than on another list. Especially since this topic has generated its own momentum.

 

Bill, we are fundamentally different on many issues, but I respect your right to have an opinion and more so for sharing it. I don’t believe the answers are as simple as I might make them appear, but I believe I have a right to propose to the engineering industry that in my opinion there is a storm coming on the horizon and those who may be of similar thought, or who are convinced by the debate (if you choose to use the word) be less apathetic in their personal actions.

 

Happy Holidays to you and to all and thank you all for your opinions and criticisms.

 

Dennis S. Wish, PE

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Allen [mailto:T.W.Allen(--nospam--at)cox.net]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 10:25 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential

 

Dennis-

 

I don’t want to debate you. If I had a Nobel in Economics, I couldn’t change your mind. I just disagree with you.

 

Protectionism (and isolationism for that matter), tariffs, limited markets, etc are bad for us. We have an abundance of proof of that fact and none to the contrary.

 

Free trade and a global economy are good for us. Even if a particular sector is temporarily hurt (or even disappears), over all we benefit from such an environment.

 

As much as you probably hate it, but your (relatively high) standard of living is more of a result of the success of corporations than government.

 

Whatever happened to freespeech(--nospam--at)whatever.com ?

 

Merry Christmas to all.

 

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)

V/F (949) 248-8588

San Juan Capistrano, CA

http://members.cox.net/ballense/

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Wish [mailto:dennis.wish(--nospam--at)verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 9:45 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential

 

Pankaj

What you and Bill Allen forget is the concept of debt and repayment. Fair trade with other countries that compete with lower wages only helps those who own or invest in business. On the other hand, what Chris Wright pointed out is correct – we need to be able to earn enough to meet the needs of our monthly budget. This is not extra money, but the budget includes housing, automobiles, food, utilities, taxes and medical. Without the ability to meet the budget because fees are forced down will certainly transform us into the famished nation in much less than 30 years.

What I don’t understand is that I am not pushing a philosophy of Carl Marx or of Gandhi – I do know something of Marx, but my ideas are based on basic economics. We can lower our earnings but unless our debt reduces on the same scale, we can’t compete with those who choose to outsource their labor or engineering to other countries.

On the Supply side portion of this, it satisfies investors and owners of business but this can only last as long as it takes for the labor rate in other countries to rise until the profits made by these people reduce. Investors don’t want reduction in profits or they take their money out and move to another investment.

If we were competing on the ideology of forcing by law the companies who hire labor in another country at 75% of the wages paid in the United States, then there would not be a large advantage to moving the industry from the United States to another country. Yet, you can’t tell me that there are not products that can be made in other countries that are not outsourced by multi-national companies who began in the US. The reason that China and Mexico were so successful was not that the work helped the people of that country since studies have shown that NAFTA was pretty much a failure. The advantage was that American industry sold out to foreign investors to the point where American Companies no long had a tie to the US and were able to leave and invest their capital in setting up industries in China to provide the machinery and materials necessary to assemble parts or to undercut the American labor rate – the fair minimum living wage.

The preamble to our constitution indicates that the purpose of our constitution is to “promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity…” In my understanding we can only promote the general welfare of the American people through the constitution by insuring that Americans (all the foreign heritage that combined make up the American people) are not driven down into poverty or reliant upon the “welfare” of the government.

 

While protectionism does not sit well with you and others, the idea of a multi-national company competing with professionals and the service industry (after taking our manufacturing) at unreasonable competitive wage rates. This is not a socialistic ideology but a capitalistic philosophy based on fair competition. Offering our work to our market at less than half of our living wage is simply not an American ideology it is a new “global” ideology that many of us never intended or figured would become of the 20th century industrial era. Even within the Silicon valley, the assembly and manufacturing of the hardware is done outside the United States.

 

So if you and Bill Allen wish to criticize me for my belief, tell me how you see global industry working that will not drive us down and our debt up in the process of leveling the labor rates?

 

Respectfully,

Dennis S. Wish, PE

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Pankaj Gupta [mailto:3.sol(--nospam--at)spectranet.com]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 9:32 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential

 

Dennis Wish wrote

When are we going to wake up and start to fight back to protect our livelihood?  My wife ordered a pair of shoes for me and the label said made in China – I returned the shoes. Then I looked at the shoes we bought at the mall – Hush Puppies. Again, made in China but now its too late for me to take them back (I’ve had them for a month and never checked the label). My wife told me that Dexter makes shoes in the U. S. and I asked her to go with me to find Dexter. If this is what it takes, I am starting to pay more attention – I only hope it’s not too late.

Dennis if your ideology and philosophy is adopted and applied by the US government consistently for 30 years, US will certainly transform from being the wealthiest nation to somewhere sandwiched between Sudan & Myanmar. But thankfully (not for me but for the citizens of US) they won't adopt it.

 

And also sometimes you should give a thought about how so may jobs and so much of wealth exists in US which you want to retain ......hint...hint...capitalism  ......hint...hint...free trade  ......hint...hint...WTO/GATT .... 

 

It is your wish (no pun intended), you can buy American shoes which might cost 3 times the Chinese ones, and so on with everything you buy, till your budget exceeds your income, so you will have to hike up your fee in order to survive. But how will you be able to manage that with the average fee actually going down due to the market's trend of outsourcing. And it won't help if everybody else in US starts following your idealogy too, because then that would become the reason for US ending up sandwiched between Sudan & Myanmar, because French, British et al would still be buying Chinese shoes.

 

There are some issues which cannot be wished away, but rather they need a new perspective and a creative approach to tackle them. And I am sorry to say your perspective is as old as Karl Marx and your approach as old as Mahatma Gandhi. While these worked for them since these were new & creative solutions at that time for those particular problems, but they won't work for you, as you have a new problem. So think ... think new ..... do what America is known for ....and not what it has always abhorred (& fought so many wars to remove from the face of this earth).

 

Regards

 

Pankaj Gupta

Structures Online

India