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Re: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential - Scott

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Paul
Re healthcare, I remember something from the states about
"life, liberty and pursuit of--".  Doesn't that life bit
include some basic right to protection from ruinous health
costs to which some people through no fault of theirs are
subject.  Any time somebody can be hurt or become sick ans should not
be ruined because of it-it could be you or someone close to you.
Gary


On 23 Dec 2003 at 9:43, Paul Feather wrote:

> I am sorry Dennis, I have tried to stay out of this but there comes a
> point.  You all need to accept that you are not going to agree on this
> and move on.  Like all political or religious discussions your views
> have a personal bias and belief system based on your cumulative
> knowledge and experiences and all the continued rhetoric will not move
> or shift the basic tenet.
>
> The government does not owe the people basic rights to healthcare or
> any of the other "simple things" you consider too important for
> developed nations to leave to the private sector.  On this we will not
> agree.
>
> Many of the views expressed by Mr. Grupta and Vish are far more
> realistic than you give them credit for.  My father, an industrial
> engineer, spent his life setting up manufacturing facilities in
> developing nations.  I grew up living in countries all over the world:
> Sri Lanka, India, Singapore, and Korea among them.  I used to joke
> about the idea that all Americans should have to actually live and
> work somewhere else at least once in their lives in order to
> appreciate what we truly have here in America.  The culture and people
> are different, but they are still people with the same basic desires
> and drives as the rest of us.  In my direct experience this is not
> typically a case of wanting "something for nothing", these are hard
> working honest people who are striving to improve their basic living
> for themselves and their children the same as you or me.  The ideals
> that this country were founded on are too great to limit our view to
> narrow nationalistic protectionist principles.
>
>
>
> Paul Feather PE, SE
> pfeather(--nospam--at)SE-Solutions.net
> www.SE-Solutions.net
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Dennis Wish
>   To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>   Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 3:12 AM
>   Subject: RE: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential
>   - Scott
>
>
>   Mr. Grupta,
>
>   The actual bottom line is that you want something for nothing. You
>   are driven by your greed and have no desire to use this opportunity
>   to help your country develop ? you can?t see past your own potential
>   for wealth and you think this justifies your criticism that I am the
>   one who is misguided. The difference as you pointed out, is that we
>   have had a few hundred years to evolve our country into what it is
>   today ? yet we had less than one hundred years to build industries.
>
>
>
>   Capitalism combined with Democracy would be a decent system, but as
>   most economists including Dr. Alan Keys believed, the combination of
>   Democracy and socialism is inevitable ? there are simply some things
>   that are too important to the people of developed countries that can
>   not be left in the private sector ? such as health care. The
>   government has just as much responsibility to protect the health of
>   their citizens as they do in creating army?s to defend our citizens
>   from attack.
>
>
>
>   The only thing that has caused failure in any system, including
>   Communism, is greed and in your opinion, we should accept that Greed
>   is inevitable.
>
>
>
>   Good luck my blindsided friend. Time will teach you what it has
>   taught us ? there is no security and starvation for some is only a
>   lost paycheck away.
>
>
>
>   Dennis S. Wish, PE
>
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Pankaj Gupta [mailto:3.sol(--nospam--at)spectranet.com]
>   Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 1:42 AM
>   To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
>   Subject: Re: Outsourcing - light commercial and high end residential
>   - Scott
>
>
>
>   Dennis wrote:
>
>   Capitalism is not perfect, neither is Democracy or Socialism and
>   neither is a Dictatorship - when greed enters the equation,
>   profitable economics crosses that line of perfection and people lose
>   jobs. Rather than addressing this problem, Pankaj is sitting back
>   seeing the opportunities coming his way but is not thinking ahead
>   past the inevitable.
>
>
>
>   Greed is a human element, and it WILL EXIST, and cannot be wished
>   away (again no pun intended). There are 2 ways of handling it. 1)
>   ACCEPT that it EXISTS. And then try to control it?s negative traits.
>   Harness it. Our ability to accept and then work on from there is
>   what makes us intelligent men. And Capitalism combined with
>   Democracy has been the most intelligent and successful method known
>   to mankind till now for harnessing this human trait of greed. 2)
>   DENY it, or try to SUBVERT it. And you end up with a utopian wish
>   called Communism (Read Russia) or a horror called Dictatorship (Read
>   Hitler). 3) There is a school of thought, which pushes the concept
>   of ?Benevalont Dictatorship?. And if this idea actually gains
>   momentum, I will certainly propose Dennis?s name for President and
>   Chris?s name for VP, and if Cliff would like to become Sec. Of
>   State, I would support him too, but under this system support
>   wouldn?t actually matter.
>
>
>
>   Dennis wrote:
>
>   It is easy for Pankaj to criticize me when he is in India, but
>   please tell me, Pankaj - will you support a mass immigration from
>   other developed melting-pots of cultures into your country who can
>   no longer afford the cost of living in the United States? Will India
>   become the melting-pot of cultures like the United States has been?
>
>
>
>   This above statement says a lot whole of your knowledge and
>   awareness about countries like India. And that is the problem with
>   your arguments. You see only your own lifestyle, circumstances and
>   wealth, and do not even have a foggiest of idea how 90% of the world
>   lives & survives. Please note that I am not blaming the US for the
>   state of affairs. But is it too much, if 90% of the people of this
>   world (who are not even sure of their next meal) try to follow your
>   path to a better living?
>
>
>
>   Dennis wrote:
>
>   Your opportunities are greater than ours now, but this won't last -
>   it's inevitable. If the cost of labor rises you will be left without
>   work while the multi-nationals move to other underdeveloped
>   resources. History has already proved this.
>
>
>
>   You are wrong on 2 counts.
>
>
>
>   1) Our opportunities are not greater than yours, they will never be,
>   as you already have a head start of 200 years of following a
>   capitalist economy. They will certainly become greater than yours,
>   if you choose to abandon the philosophy & system you have so far
>   followed.
>
>
>
>   2) You keep on harping about corporations moving from one country to
>   another, and I do not see what is wrong with that. Are Japan or
>   South Korea or West Germany in a worse condition, than before these
>   corporations moved in. If you think so, I do not know from where you
>   get your information. A more relevant question is ?In comparison
>   what happened to the countries which did not allow these
>   corporations to move in like North Korea and East Germany?. Cases of
>   Korea and Germany: Same nation, same people, broken into 2 different
>   economic systems, and in 40 years there is a difference of 10 times
>   in the total amount of wealth. I seriously think you have a very
>   strange way of reading History.
>
>
>
>   All I can see is some people taking their lifestyle and wealth for
>   granted, without actually working for it (and applying your mind to
>   solve a problem is a part of working).
>
>
>
>   And lastly, there is NO inevitable, as you say in your terms. You do
>   not even comprehend the dimensions of inevitability, and there is no
>   way I can (however so much I would like to try) to make you
>   comprehend. Visit any Asian or African nation, and maybe you will
>   start to get a glimpse.
>
>   Regards
>
>
>
>   Pankaj Gupta
>
>   Structures Online
>
>   India
>
>
>
>   PS: Sorry, Master Christopher, too much Jack Daniels again.
>
>
>
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