Need a book? Engineering books recommendations...

Return to index: [Subject] [Thread] [Date] [Author]

Re: Direct Supervision in Texas

[Subject Prev][Subject Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Rand:

I don't disagree with your assessment...I more less understand the
intent...the person sealing the drawings should be able to discuss and
support the engineering on the drawings as if they did it themselves.

What stopped me in my tracks was the phrase "personally present" in the
Texas ruling.  That phrase seems to imply that the sealing engineer is
"personally" physically "present" during all the engineering work (i.e.
sitting there right next to the person doing the work).  If so, that is a
BIG difference between what I understand to be the idea and intent of
direct supervision.

Basically, it seemed to be a ruling that has the potential to be
interpreted in a very harsh way due to a phrase that was not really
defined in anyway, but has a fairly restrictive "common" definition (i.e.
what I call "lawyer fodder").

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Rand Holtham, P.E. wrote:

> Scott, Charley, and Jim,
>
> Stan and I have been discussing this off line since last week, and I'm not
> sure he completely gets my point. By the way I'm licensed in Tx. My issue
> was that if someone prepares a design and gives it to me to sign, then I
> must perform ALL calculations and apply appropriate engineered judgment to
> that design prior to stamping it. In do this I have personally done the
> engineering work (the direct supervision clause doesn't enter in)  In
> addition to stamping it the registered engineering firm's logo must appear
> on that drawing. This fits the intent of the Texas Engineering Practice Act
> and I have confirmed this with the boards technical specialist (also a
> P.E.).
>
> Now the twist that Stan is hung up on is if someone else does the
> engineering calcs for me (lets say an EIT and the direct supervision clause
> then applies) then I must stay in very close contact with the EIT and check
> every aspect of his work as if I were doing it myself. This of course save
> me no time but gives the EIT the experience. If I go on vacation then the
> EIT can continue to do the work I've laid out for him, I just have to check
> every thread of work he has done before I put my name on it. The bottom line
> is if someone questions your work can you prove what you did, both with your
> closeness to the engineering and involvement.
>
> If I had to guess at the particulars of the disciplinary action I would say
> that this fella had someone working at his side business and he failed to
> check the fellas work before he stamped it. Also it may be that no licensed
> engineer work at this part time business significantly long enough (per day
> or week) to qualify as a registered firm in the state of Texas. A firm or
> individual cannot offer his services to the public unless through a Register
> Firm or Registered sole proprietorship.
>
> Again the bottom line is that the person signing a drawing has to be able to
> prove due diligence for the information on the drawing (or omissions). I
> would doubt that this is very different in any of the other states.
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Rand
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Maxwell" <smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu>
> To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Direct Supervision in Texas
>
>
> > Jim, Charley, & Stan:
> >
> > Similar thoughts were running thru my head when I read that enforcement
> > action that Stan posted...but mine went even further...
> >
> > What does the board define as "personally present"?  Does that mean "in
> > the same building"?  "In the same suite"?  "In the next office"?  Or does
> > it mean sitting there next to the person doing the work?  If the last,
> > then does the supervising PE have to be there the WHOLE time?  To me,
> > "personally present" implies that the supervising PE is sitting there the
> > whole time...which then completely defeats any idea of having some
> > subordinate engineers that do work that you are "personally present" to
> > supervise.  In such a definition, how does the PE get any of THEIR work
> > done?
> >
> > I understand the intent, but the wording of that ruling is "loose" at
> > best...lawyer fodder at worst.
> >
> > Interesting none the less...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Scott
> > Adrian, MI
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Charley Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > > Jim -
> > >
> > > It seems like "regular personal presence" could reasonably be
> > > interpreted to mean that the EOR routinely is available to the
> > > project engineer for questions and consultation during the development
> > > of the project. When the EOR is away, I would guess that "exerting
> > > significant control" could take place, by either delegation to a
> > > trusted subordinate (senior engineer) or restriction of scope of work
> > > (e.g. "Don't send these layouts and details to drafting before I get
> > > back and review them.").
> > >
> > > I agree, however, that the final sentence seems to contradict the
> > > prior sentence by stating the supervising engineers must be
> > > personally present at all times.  Unless that last sentence is
> > > actually Board Rule 131.18(9) and the prior sentences are the
> > > clarification.  Stan?
> > >
> > > Question for Stan:
> > >
> > > Does the enforcement action give any details regarding the cause
> > > for complaint?  Was Mr. Perge not present *at any time* during
> > > preparation of the design (i.e on vacation the whole time), or
> > > was he simply absent periodically during the design?  If the
> > > latter, I agree with Jim.  If you have to be physically present
> > > at all times, how does any work get done when the Principals all
> > > get the flu?
> > >
> > > Charley
> > >
> > > --
> > > Charles Hamilton, PhD EIT               Faculty Fellow
> > > Department of Civil and                 Phone: 949.824.3752
> > >      Environmental Engineering           FAX:   949.824.2117
> > > University of California, Irvine        Email: chamilto(--nospam--at)uci.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > > *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > > *
> > > *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > > *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > > *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > > *
> > > *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > > *
> > > *   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > > *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > > *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > > *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> > *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> > *
> > *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> > *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> > *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> > *
> > *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> > *
> > *   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> > *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> > *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> > *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> > ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
> >
>
>
>
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> *
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********
>


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
* 
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers 
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To 
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you 
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted 
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web 
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org 
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********