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RE: designers

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Scott -

First of all, you would be buying lunch. That's a given :o).

Second, knowing you, you would only be referring to yourself as a structural
engineer to piss me off :o).

Otherwise, all the other scenarios are apparently valid. If your business
card had your home office in Michigan and you had the title "Structural
Engineer", based on my experience, there's nothing wrong with it here in CA.
Now, you know not to take my word for this and to contact BORPELS first.
But, that's the impression I'm under based on the experience I had which
included a real case and actual written correspondence to BORPELS.

\cynicism on

Further, here in CA, there's really no need to present yourself as a
structural engineer because, as you probably already know, being a
structural engineer here in CA only allows you to do a few more projects
than a licensed civil engineer can do. The only exceptions are the
structural systems for schools and hospitals. I believe (could be wrong,
it's happened before) that also the city of Los Angeles has restricted the
design of structural systems for buildings over 160 feet to licensed
structural engineers. But, everything else is fair game. There's really no
reason to take the SE exam.

So, let the flood gates open, ladies and gentlemen. Submit your application
for P.E., get a license via comity (btw, it only takes 2 years of experience
after graduation to be able to sit for the P. E. exam) and you too can
design buildings to resist earthquakes in an area of the country where your
project is _guaranteed_ to be load tested! After all, seismic design is not
just academic entertainment here.

Come on down!

\cynicism off

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
ALLEN DESIGNS (http://www.AllenDesigns.com)
San Juan Capistrano, CA

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
:Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:19 AM
:To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
:Subject: RE: designers
:
:Bill:
:
:You raise a point that has gone through my mind at various time.  I am a
:licensed Structrual Engineer in Illinois and strictly speaking can refer
:to myself as a Structural Engineer here in Michigan where I am a licensed
:Professional Engineer (Michigan only restricts the use of the term
:"Professional Engineer").  But what happen if I were out in California on
:vacation and stopped by to have lunch with you and refered to myself as a
:Structural Engineer?  Would I be in violation of California's SE Title
:Act?  I would think not...I don't live in CA, don't have an address in
:California and don't practice in CA.  Now, what happens if I am in
:California on business...how does that change things?  Or even better yet,
:what if I want to practice (i.e. design projects) in CA, but still live,
:work, and have my business address in MI?
:
:It should be noted (for others) that CA does limit some uses of the word
:"Engineer" (i.e. "Structural Engineer", I believe "Geotechnical Engineer",
:and "Professional Engineer"), but others such as "Staff Engineer" are not
:regulated.
:
:Regards,
:
:Scott
:Adrian, MI
:
:
:On Wed, 19 May 2004, Bill Allen wrote:
:
:> Scott -
:>
:> At least here in CA, the administration is a little looser apparently. I
:> once observed a set of drawings produced by a firm whose office is in the
:> state of Washington. The person who stamped and signed the drawings was a
:> licensed civil engineer and stamped the drawings with his CA P.E. (civil)
:> stamp. That part was O.K. What bothered me was that, in the title block,
:the
:> name of the firm was "Blah, Blah, Structural Engineers". Apparently, the
:> licensee was recognized in the state of WA as a structural engineer. I
:> thought that, unless he was a licensed CA SE, he could not present
:himself
:> (or his firm) as a structural engineer here in CA unless he and/or
:another
:> principal at his firm was a CA SE. When I contacted BORPELS, they told me
:> that if the registrant was recognized as a structural engineer in his
:home
:> state, that was good enough for them.
:>
:> And, yes, according to your list (and from my personal observations),
:ANYONE
:> can be an engineer here in CA.
:>
:> Sigh...
:>
:> T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)
:> ALLEN DESIGNS (http://www.AllenDesigns.com)
:> San Juan Capistrano, CA
:>
:> :-----Original Message-----
:> :From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
:> :Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:12 AM
:> :To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
:> :Subject: Re: designers
:> :
:> :Jordan:
:> :
:> :Be careful here.  Different states have different rules on the use of
:> :"Engineer" (and "Architect" as well I would assume).  The following
:states
:> :restrict the use of the term "Engineer", variations of "Engineer" and/or
:> :"Professional Engineer" (according to information on the NCEES website):
:> :Alabama
:> :Alaska
:> :Arizona
:> :Arkansas
:> :Colorado
:> :Delaware
:> :Florida
:> :Georgia
:> :Hawaii
:> :Kansas
:> :Louisiana
:> :Maryland
:> :Massachusetts
:> :Minnesota
:> :Mississippi
:> :Missouri
:> :Nebraska
:> :New Hampshire
:> :New Jersey
:> :New Mexico
:> :North Carolina
:> :North Dakota
:> :Ohio
:> :Oklahoma
:> :Rhode Island
:> :South Carolina
:> :South Dakota
:> :Tennessee
:> :Texas (as Rand pointed out)
:> :Utah
:> :Washington
:> :West Virgina
:> :
:> :All the above states are listed as restricting the use of "Engineer"
:> :and/or variations of "Engineer" (i.e. Test Engineer, Staff Engineer,
:etc).
:> :Most if not all of the states not mentioned only restrict the use of
:> :"Professional Engineer".  So if you refer to yourself as an engineer in
:> :any of the above states, you are technically in violation of the PE
:law(s)
:> :(one common exception I would think would be the one that Rand
:> :mentions...i.e. "Engineer in Training").
:> :
:> :Regards,
:> :
:> :Scott
:> :Adrian, MI
:> :
:> :
:> :On Wed, 19 May 2004, Jordan Truesdell, PE wrote:
:> :
:> :> At 09:10 AM 5/19/2004 -0400, you wrote:
:> :> >At my old A & E company the terms used for draftsmen (we use CAD Tech
:at
:> :> >my new office, which I prefer) were often confusing. That was in part
:> :> >because like someone else said, architects out of school call
:themselves
:> :> >architectural designers. I have heard to use the term "Architect"
:> :implies
:> :> >AIA certification and that is why they did not use that term
:(illegal),
:> :> >they had to throw in "designer". They do not have the same EI type
:> :> >designation that we have.
:> :> >
:> :>
:> :> I had to jump in here.  I don't find using "Architect" to be any more
:> :> misleading than "Engineer".  Not that I believe that the engineer
:moniker
:> :> has been enhanced by non-registered-professionals using the
:> :> title.  Architect (with a capital A) is still a largely unregulated
:> :label,
:> :> just as Engineer.  Now, if a fresh-out was calling themselves a
:> :Registered
:> :> Architect, or was putting AIA behind their name, that's wrong, but
:htey
:> :> have a degree in architecture, and that makes them no less an
:Architect
:> :> than an Accountant (without a CPA) or an Engineer (without a PE).
:> :>
:> :> At the AE firm I worked for, we Architectural Technicians and
:Engineering
:> :> Technicians for drafters.  A 2 year degree (associate) in some sort of
:> :CAD
:> :> related field should be where the bar is set. A drafter with
:aspirations
:> :> for a professional license is more likely to spend less time in your
:firm
:> :> (as a drafter, or at all). Proficiency with the type of building you
:do,
:> :> and the software and operating system is probably just as important as
:> :> education.
:> :>
:> :> On a tangent, in my AE firm, the lowest level of professional was a
:> :"Staff
:> :> Engineer", the highest was an "Associate."  That always struck me as
:> :funny,
:> :> because outside of the AE world (I come from an Aerospace and
:Mechanical
:> :> Design background), an Associate is a fresh-out engineer who can't
:tell a
:> :> cap screw from a set screw, and  "Staff" engineer was highest
:technical
:> :> level, involved with top management in the running of the
:> :company/division.
:> :>
:> :>
:> :> Jordan Truesdell, PE, Principal
:> :>
:> :> Truesdell Engineering, Inc.
:> :> Structural Consulting and Design
:> :> 434 Bluegrass Trail Studio #23
:> :> Newport, VA 24128-0342
:> :> www.truesdellengineering.com
:> :>
:> :>
:> :>
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