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Re: Seismic piping question - fees

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I would be interested to know how other engineers
craft their fee proposals to handle the cost of
designing bracing of A/E/M components per IBC 1621. 
It seems that the scope is difficult to determine
during fee proposal stage.

Include a generous "WAG" amount?

Exclude it and deal with it later as a change once the
scope is better defined?

Any other approaches used?  What's the "best" way
you've found?

d a v e  e v a n s 








Scott wrote:

I do not think many people understand the impact of
the question that is
raised in this thread.   Knowing when piping is exempt
from IBC component
bracing design requirements is important.  I believe
most building
departments are not well versed in IBC 1621
architectural, mechanical and
electrical component bracing requirements.  When they
get savvy, watch out
if you do not have component bracing design exempted
from your scope of
work.  The most important sections to know are the
ones that tell you when
seismic restraint is not required.  Deformability of
the pipe determines
some exemptions to component seismic bracing.

The SMACNA Seismic Restraint Manual outlines the
mechanical and structural
engineer's responsibilities.  I would not rack your
brains over when the
piping has high deformability, it is the mechanical
engineers
responsibility to give you this information if you
ask.  Ask the
mechanical engineer.

I have heard some mechanical engineers argue that they
include general
notes and indicate in their specifications that the
mechanical and
plumbing stuff needs to be braced per the SMACNA
Seismic so why have any
detail on the plans.  I am sorry but relying on a note
to brace stuff per
the SMACNA Seismic Manual  ensures that the component
bracing requirements
will not be met on smaller projects most of the time,
even if you have a
IBC 1705 quality assurance plan [which gets overlooked
on smaller projects
by building departments most of the time too].  

The SMACNA manual is relatively easy to use and
straightforward. It has
standard details where the bracing member sizes and
connections are picked
out of schedules based on the a "seismic hazard level"
which  is
determined from the IBC seismic coefficient.  If you
have to design
bracing for duct work or pipes - buy the SMACNA
Seismic Restraint Manual,
put some sheets together with standard SMACNA details
/ notes and then put
the schedules relevant to the details on the sheets -
easy cheesy.  Throw
this on your plans and there is not much thought
involved.   I also
recommend having a generic IBC 1705  quality assurance
plan that can have
the stuff that is not needed cut out of.

Respectfully,

Scott M. Haan P.E. 
Deputy Building Official

Municipality of Anchorage
Development Services  Department 
Mission Statement:  Guide safe construction and
responsible development
for the community.





-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Wright [mailto:chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:10 AM
To: ?
Subject: RE: Seismic Piping Question


>Basically, how do I determine the deformabilty of a
piping system to know
>whether or not it's a high deformability, limited
deformability, or low
>deformability piping system?
You may be in over your head here. Piping is
considered under ASME/ANSI
B31.n, the n depending on the kind of system,
refrigeration, refinery
what-have-you. It's nothing like the approach used for
buildings. You
should look at the piping codes for guidance and rules
covering external
loads; the combination requirements and thermal
expansion are especially
important.

Christopher Wright P.E.    |"They couldn't hit an
elephant at
chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com        | this distance"   (last
words of Gen.
___________________________| John Sedgwick,
Spotsylvania 1864)
http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw



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