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RE: Seismic Piping Question

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I agree with both of you to an extent, but I would have to say (based on the
time that I spent researching this monster), that the mechanical contractor
will not know what you're talking about and/ or will not do be able to tell
you what the deformability of a pipe is.  They will either refer you to ASTM
standards or B31.1.  I have not looked at SMACNA yet, but if it doesn't call
out the material of the pipe as well as the size, it will not work well
enough.

I think that there needs to be more work done in this area so that they can
include a table of different materials (with thier ASTM standard number) and
what the deformability is.  Then the responsibility of the seismic design is
where I believe it should be - on the structural engineer.

Just one man's opinion - take it for what it's worth.

Brian S. Bossley, EIT
Ventura Engineering
7610 Olentangy River Rd.
Columbus, OH 43235
(614) 847-1110 x121


-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Sprague [mailto:spraguehope(--nospam--at)hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 1:15 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Seismic Piping Question


Scott,
I agree with your assessment of the current state of the design (or lack of)
when it comes to piping components and bracing.  In the nuclear industry,
engineers design it all.  In the hospitals of California, there are
engineers that design piping.  In the world of "normal" industrial and
commercial buildings, there is often a void that is often left unfilled.

I would also suggest that the ISAT be considered as a good tool.
http://www.isatsb.com/  ISAT has done what NUSIG attempted to do a while
back.

Regards,
Harold Sprague


>From: "Haan, Scott M." <HaanSM(--nospam--at)ci.anchorage.ak.us>
>Reply-To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
>Subject: RE: Seismic Piping Question
>Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:20:18 -0800
>
>I do not think many people understand the impact of the question that is
>raised in this thread.   Knowing when piping is exempt from IBC component
>bracing design requirements is important.  I believe most building
>departments are not well versed in IBC 1621 architectural, mechanical and
>electrical component bracing requirements.  When they get savvy, watch out
>if you do not have component bracing design exempted from your scope of
>work.  The most important sections to know are the ones that tell you when
>seismic restraint is not required.  Deformability of the pipe determines
>some exemptions to component seismic bracing.
>
>The SMACNA Seismic Restraint Manual outlines the mechanical and structural
>engineer's responsibilities.  I would not rack your brains over when the
>piping has high deformability, it is the mechanical engineers
>responsibility to give you this information if you ask.  Ask the mechanical
>engineer.
>
>I have heard some mechanical engineers argue that they include general
>notes and indicate in their specifications that the mechanical and plumbing
>stuff needs to be braced per the SMACNA Seismic so why have any detail on
>the plans.  I am sorry but relying on a note to brace stuff per the SMACNA
>Seismic Manual  ensures that the component bracing requirements will not be
>met on smaller projects most of the time, even if you have a IBC 1705
>quality assurance plan [which gets overlooked on smaller projects by
>building departments most of the time too].
>
>The SMACNA manual is relatively easy to use and straightforward. It has
>standard details where the bracing member sizes and connections are picked
>out of schedules based on the a "seismic hazard level" which  is determined
>from the IBC seismic coefficient.  If you have to design bracing for duct
>work or pipes - buy the SMACNA Seismic Restraint Manual, put some sheets
>together with standard SMACNA details / notes and then put the schedules
>relevant to the details on the sheets - easy cheesy.  Throw this on your
>plans and there is not much thought involved.   I also recommend having a
>generic IBC 1705  quality assurance plan that can have the stuff that is
>not needed cut out of.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Scott M. Haan P.E.
>Deputy Building Official
>
>Municipality of Anchorage
>Development Services  Department
>Mission Statement:  Guide safe construction and responsible development for
>the community.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Christopher Wright [mailto:chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com]
>Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:10 AM
>To: ?
>Subject: RE: Seismic Piping Question
>
>
> >Basically, how do I determine the deformabilty of a piping system to
> >know whether or not it's a high deformability, limited deformability,
> >or low deformability piping system?
>You may be in over your head here. Piping is considered under ASME/ANSI
>B31.n, the n depending on the kind of system, refrigeration, refinery
>what-have-you. It's nothing like the approach used for buildings. You
>should look at the piping codes for guidance and rules covering external
>loads; the combination requirements and thermal expansion are especially
>important.
>
>Christopher Wright P.E.    |"They couldn't hit an elephant at
>chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com        | this distance"   (last words of Gen.
>___________________________| John Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 1864)
>http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw
>
>

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