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RE: Moment Frames with Slip Critical Shear Connection

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I can bury you in research on joints combining any number of
combinations of rivets, bearing bolts, slip-critical bolts, fillet welds
transverse and fillet welds longitudinal.

I'd like you to show me how to erect a beam so that bolts are not in
bearing due to dead weight. Load reversals are covered under a separate
requirement in the specification, so need not be used to confuse the
questions here.

I prefer rational thought. I was asking why you disagree with the
rational thought that went into the AISC recommendations you questioned.

Let's try to take this back from an escalating contest. I really did ask
my question at the bottom of this string with the honest intentions of
finding the evidence on which you and others challenge the
recommendations. If you're right, you will find no more string supporter
than me. But all that has been offered to date is theory and opinion,
which is counter to the long-standing performance record of what is
being questioned.

Respectfully,
Charlie

-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, William [mailto:ShermanWC(--nospam--at)cdm.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 8:43 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Moment Frames with Slip Critical Shear Connection

I will respond with several questions of my own:
 
1. Are there "bodies" to support the "theory" that slip-critical bolts
must
be used with welds when used at the same faying surface?
 
2. Has ASCE done any testing to prove its "theory" that bearing bolts
can be
used at the web combined with welded flanges? 
 
3. If the theory is based on the "assumption" that the bolts will be
seated
prior to welding of flanges, what happens in a joint that has load
reversal
or axial load? Why don't the AISC requirements state the limitations
that
they are based on, i.e. pre-seated bolts? 
 
4. Is it permissible to use rational thought in code requirements or
must
everything be proven by testing or "locating bodies"? 


William C. Sherman, PE
(Bill Sherman)
CDM, Denver, CO
Phone: 303-298-1311
Fax: 303-293-8236
email: shermanwc(--nospam--at)cdm.com

________________________________

	From: Carter, Charlie [mailto:carter(--nospam--at)aisc.org] 
	Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 8:26 AM
	To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
	Subject: RE: Moment Frames with Slip Critical Shear Connection
	
	
	>I guess your concern would be that the flange plate welds
	>might be put into bending until the bolts "slip" into bearing?

	Can anyone show me bodies to support this theory? I mean that
quipped question with honest intentions as it is usually the response I
get
to the opinion I gave earlier. Yet I've not seen it and I am yet to have
anyone show me a case when asked. With all of the old A307 and more
current
HS bearing joints used in this case, surely we'd have seen something by
now
if the theory were of real concern.

	Charlie

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