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Was: OT Freespeech Now: Outsourcing (Apolitical)

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I lost track of where the "dig" occurred but I hope it was not in my post -
at least I did not think my response was inflammatory. I might have been a
bit terse, but the author stated that he represented an American Company
that happened to outsource their services to India. What he didn't say was
that his American Company, while possibly supplying some interaction with
the engineering client, was a shell for possibly hundreds of low wage and
possibly qualified employees in India. 
Now let me ask who really profits from this. Your cost is not tremendously
lower than had you hired local labor, but significantly lower to entice you
to outsource. The wage paid to the actual laborer is probably (I don't know
this company) at an average wage that is still only a fraction of our
minimum wage in the US. Finally, the owners of the "American Company"
representing the outsourced services are reasonably the people who pocket
the difference - a significant profit to a small group of representatives.
This amounts to exploitation in my book. Now take into consideration the
signature on the post and the location of the author - not written from the
American company which makes the American business a shell to legitimatize
the argument - and it doesn't work.
I also don't understand how this can be construed as a political based
argument since Outsourcing was vigorously defended by both sides of
congressional aisle. Clinton was in favor of Globalization as was almost
every president and congress (with a few exceptions) back to Reagan. This is
one of the most non-partisan topics in Washington - except for those who
oppose NAFTA, WTO and the programs they spawn such as H-1B that affects us
on a professional level.
Finally, we did see this coming. Some of us spoke out against the
Outsourcing of American jobs since before NAFTA - most notably Robert
Johnson in Chicago (SEAOI) who most of you have been ignoring for years. He
remains the one and virtually only advocate against outsourcing - but like
many of us who speak too often about a cause, we become sanitized within the
profession and ignored by most as over active zealots.

Outsourcing is an important issue. When the first PC came out I fell in love
with the technology - but honestly, I understood the impact that a computer
or the change in technology would have upon the workers throughout in the
United States. I tried to conclude that the employers in this country would
protect the foundation of our society and not abuse the technology - but
this is water under the bridge.

Politically, there is no adequate solution. Keeping government out of the
enforcement of the private sector does not work as the private sector serves
only the investor's bottom line, not the workers rights. Having government
regulate does not work - not as long as soft money continues to flood
Washington to sway the votes in the House and Senate.  The answer lies
within some compromise, but those on both sides are simply too passionate in
their core values to compromise and we should not forget that those I refer
to are not divided by party, they are divided by class.

As for those on our list - politics or any suggestion of political influence
brings up strong opinions by those of us who are old enough to have
experienced past wars - either as a grunt in service or as a protester on
home ground. There is a grey area but personal experience leaves many with
very strongly protected opinions that can not reach anything but critical
mass on a list like this - and becomes inappropriate to the majority of
those who don't appreciate the rhetoric. This is why I offered an option.
It's still there and I hope that most who feel the lean to vent a political
position will do so on another list - mine or any number of others out
there, but not on the SEAINT List. 

Dennis S. Wish, PE

California Professional Engineer

Structural Engineering Consultant



"Apathy is Lethal!" Speak out and Vote - but make sure you get the facts
right without the spin from either side; Verify their claims at


-----Original Message-----
From: chuck utzman [mailto:chuckuc(--nospam--at)] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:32 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: Re: Now Political Now: OT Freespeech

Thanks Dennis
Outsourcing should have been a "apolitical" subject the first time you 
brought it up. But that thread quickly deteriorated into political name 
calling.  This time the first post on the subject started out with a 
little "dig".  I've watched enough of these episodes to know where they 
invariably lead and I'm not going to sit idly by anymore.  Why is so 
difficult for some supposedly intelligent people to grasp the concept of 
keeping political name calling off this list?  Frankly I doubt that 
anyone here is really that obtuse--although some are pleased to pretend 
to be. 

Congress apparently turned us into "manufacturers" on Tuesday.  I'm 
curious if anyone has any information about what that means to our 
profession.  But, sadly, I doubt that we are collectively able to have 
an adult discussion without somebody turning it into another political 
rock fight.
Chuck Utzman, P.E.

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