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Moderator motion? RE: "By The President of the United States of America, A Proclamation"

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While I uphold free speech, agree with Bill on the importance of the Thanksgiving holiday, and also agree (mostly) with Dennis and others that Bill's post is over the line for this forum, I am continually amazed at how factual history quickly inflames this list. The holiday's history can be seen on and paints a broader view of the whole matter. I am wondering whether it is the content of the off-topic posts that engender such reactions, or is it the use of what is meant to be a professional engineering forum for off-topic and sometimes personal conversations? Sometimes I enjoy the exchange of non-engineering views here, but not today.

I make the motion to the moderator of this list to take measures on all these non-engineering posts so we can get back to a cleaner and on-topic list. There are numerous other places to discuss non-engineering matters, including direct email rather than posting to what is a very public list, and furthermore, I fear that some of our professional demeanor is being diminished by what on a Monday morning after a holiday looks like personal attacks. In the past I have participated in some off-topic discussions, but I pledge this will be my last off-topic post on this list.

Best regards,

Thomas Honles, SE, PE
Los Angeles, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: chuck utzman [mailto:chuckuc(--nospam--at)]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 8:37 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)
Subject: Re: "By The President of the United States of America, A

Among the "principles" you extoll was the restriction of suffrage to 
white, male, land owners.  I believe that most would agree that our 
nation's level of consciousness has evolved for the better in the last 
300 years. 

Nonetheless, Dennis is absolutely correct--this forum is not an 
appropriate forum to espouse your political & religious beliefs.  Please 
take your soapbox to some other location.
Chuck Utzman,P.E.

Bill Polhemus wrote:

> Dennis Wish wrote:
>> Given the state of affairs and instability in the world today, I believe
>> this post is simply inappropriate for a professional list. A simple 
>> wish of
>> good tidings during the holidays is sufficient. More than this shows the
>> world that the United States believes that our belief based democracy 
>> is the
>> only way of life we recognize and in my opinion, this is the root of our
>> problems.
> Thanks for the comments, Dennis.
> I think it is fascinating that the principles on which this nation was 
> founded, are now considered "inappropriate" for public discussion by 
> "modern" ways of thinking.
> Given the divide that seems to inflict so much of the discourse 
> between people in our nation today, it makes me that much more 
> thankful to that same God invoked by Pres. Washington, that "our side" 
> won the last election.
> With respect, I'm grateful that yours is the minority view. Much as I 
> respect your right to view any acknowledgement of the Divine as 
> "inappropriate," the depth of my disagreement with that point of view 
> cannot possibly be overstated.

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