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Re: SIPS panels - Structural Insulated Panel System

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So what is typically used for roofing?  A metal roof?

David Finley, P.E.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Maxwell" <smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu>
To: <seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: SIPS panels - Structural Insulated Panel System


> Jordan:
>
> Actually, I did mention the issue about roof shingles and warranty...you
> likely did not see it buried in my long ramble/dissertation (see the
> second paragraph in my response to John's first question).
>
> You are correct...shingles (if that is what he is using) can be an issue.
> There are still not too many manufacturers that make shingle that they
> will warrant on SIPs.  They are usually "premium" shingles.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott
> Adrian, MI
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Jordan Truesdell, PE wrote:
>
> > Scott gave you some great info. I've not done paid-for design work with
> > SIPs, but investigated them thoroughly about five years ago for my own
> > house.  At the time, I was convinced they were neck-and-neck with sliced
> > bread.  In the end I was faced with the reality of no local installers,
> > and I was looking at a 2x-5x cost premium, and opted for stick instead.
> > (I was pretty sure that Insulspan was planning on chartering a 747 and
> > putting the crew - paid at lawyer rates - up in a 5 star resort during
> > the installation, as they managed a $110,000 quote on a 3000 SF plan)
> >
> > One think Scott didn't mention (though this will be the Architect's
> > problem) is roofing materials.  As of three or four years ago there was
> > only one, possibly two, asphalt shingle manufacturers who would honor
> > their warranty on products installed directly to the SIP OSB surface.
> > Additionally, I have some minor reservations about what is going to
> > happen to the OSB during the (inevitable) roof tear-off for the second
> > re-shingle.
> >
> > Another supplier is FisherSIPS, out of Kentucky, iirc.  At least one of
> > the manufacturers uses 3/8" OSB skins.  There is a whole class of
product
> > which uses steel skins with EPS or Urethane/Polyisocyanurate cores. I
had
> > a manufacturer in about two months ago who needed local engineering, but
> > can't remember the name or find his card.
> >
> > Recently, I've been doing some work with a similar product - Thermasteel
> > panels (www.thermasteelcorp.com). The panels look like light-gauge steel
> > I studs with EPS between them, but are fabricated with 24ga Cs on each
> > face, and EPS foamed-in-place to form a single unit:
> >
> >      _____
> > [EPS]   ^
> >  EPS    |
> >  EPS    |
> > [EPS]   |
> >  EPS    4'
> >  EPS    |
> > [EPS]   |
> >  EPS    |
> >  EPS    |
> > [EPS]   v
> >
> > The end channels can be changed out for CSJ/CSW shapes in heavier
> > gauges.  The shapes have a heat-activated adhesive sprayed on the foam
> > side, which bonds to the EPS during the foaming process.  The tensile
> > bond is fairly strong, and the EPS - being continuous - provides a very
> > good resistance to buckling. A 12' tall x 4' w x 7.5" thick test panel
> > (run last Monday) with CSJ studs @ 16" o/c failed at over 40,000lbs,
with
> > the load applied at the 1/3 point of the top plate. The failure was a
> > local buckling at the top of the stud, only about 2" at the top was
> > affected.  All this was just to say - the foamed-in-place process really
> > does prevent buckling of thin skins.  That's not to say they are
perfect,
> > and I've had several "discussions" with them about their racking shear
> > performance. ICBO values (test/2.5FS) is about as good as drywall on
> > studs if the panel doesn't get diagonal straps. The arguments come
> > because the real life stiffness is deceptively large, as there's no
> > "play" due to fastener/hole slop.
> >
> > Sorry for rambling on...hope this gives you a little confidence that
> > there are lots of these out in "the wild".  Each has it's own gotcha's,
> > but once you know where the tricks are, the overall performance can be
> > very good.
> >
> > Jordan
> >
> >
> >
> > At 04:47 PM 12/7/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> >       I have a project that's a private high school dormitory.  The
> >       Architect is very interested in using products that can
> >       fulfill multiple tasks.  He has suggested using a SIPS panel
> >       as both the roof decking and the load bearing wall.  A SIPS
> >       panel is basically 2 pieces of plywood separated by
> >       insulation.  The panels are 48" wide and at each joint have
> >       actual studs or joist members.  The project is in central
> >       Alabama and is IBC Seismic Cat B.  Seismic will be relatively
> >       light for this project.  Wind will likely control.  The
> >       Architect wants this to be his structural deck (14' span or
> >       so), finish ceiling (yes, it's rough), insulation, and
> >       shingle nailer.  The walls would be the same except it would
> >       receive sheet rock on the interior and hardi-plank on the
> >       exterior.
> >
> >       My main concerns are:
> >       1.  With a conventional plywood roof on H-clips there is
> >       movement available in the roof.  This product doesn't have
> >       this option.  How is this accommodated for this system so
> >       that temperature doesn't cause visible roof bulges?
> >       2.  What issues are there with load bearing?  It appears that
> >       the plywood is actually taking the load.  It really doesn't
> >       give me a warm fuzzy feeling.  What happens if there is a
> >       leak that causes plywood failure?  It doesn't seem like it
> >       would take much termite infestation to cause a problem.
> >       Bulkier studs are more resistant to both of these.
> >       3.  Bolting a plate down and then installing the panel and
> >       then nailing through the panel into the pre bolted sill plate
> >       just seems like a crap shoot.
> >
> >       Has anyone out there used this product and can offer advice?
> >       My gut feel is that it's probably pretty good as a roof
> >       deck/insulation/ceiling, but I'm not as comfortable with it
> >       as my load bearing wall.  It just seems that you're relying
> >       on the insulation to do a whole lot of bracing of the two,
> >       thin load bearing wythes.
> >
> >       John C. Jones, PE
> >       Barnett Associates
> >       Pell City, AL
> >       205-884-5334
> >       205-884-0099 (fax)
> >
> >
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