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RE: PE/SE debate

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David,

I don't know if the Washington total is correct as I did not have to take
the Struct II exam through them, but I can tell you that the fee for the
Struct III exam has gone up considerably since I first took it.  I believe
that I paid around $60 the first time I took the Struct III exam.  The
last time I took it, it was about $300.

I have no idea what the fees are for California.

Regards,

Scott
Adrian, MI


On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, David Adie wrote:

> apparently california will now accept the seIII from washington
>
> http://www.dol.wa.gov/engineers/cawase3.doc
>
> if i tracked down the fees correctly, it costs about $275 to test in cal and
> $900 to test in washington.  (that's the seII and seIII exams).  please
> correct me if i'm wrong
>
> David Adie, P.E., LEED A.P.
>
> COUGHLIN PORTER LUNDEEN
> 413 Pine Street - Suite #300 - Seattle, WA.  98101
> p 206 343 0460 - f 206 343 5691
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Maxwell [mailto:smaxwell(--nospam--at)engin.umich.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:59 AM
> To: Don
> Cc: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
> Subject: Re: Unreinforced foundation walls and PE/SE debate
>
>
> Don:
>
> With regard to your question about structural licenses exams...
>
> There are 4 structural test out there at the moment (I believe that it is
> still currently 4).  There is the NCEES Struct I, the NCEES Struct II, the
> Washington Struct III, and the California SE exam (aka the Western States
> Exam).
>
> The NCEES Struct I exam is equivalent to the Civil PE exam.  It is a 80
> question (I believe) multiple guess exam.  The only really difference
> between it and the Civil PE exam is that it is _ALL_ structural engineering
> questions.  It is rather easy (in my opinion), much like the Civil PE exam
> is rather easy.  If nothing else, it is certainly the easiest of the
> structural exams.  It is an 8 hour exam.  It is used as the "first"
> step/exam of many of the SE licenses and is also used by many states as the
> PE license exam as an alternate choice to the Civil PE exam (i.e. for those
> that only wish to do structural work).  FWIW, this exam, like the Civil PE
> exam, used to be 4 hours of "short answer" (i.e. write out your solution and
> get partial credit) in the morning and 4 hours of 40 multiple guess in the
> afternoon but was changed to the 80 multiple guess format a several years
> ago.
>
> The NCEES Struct II exam is generally the "second" step/exam (not counting
> the EIT) toward getting a SE license in many states that offer such a
> license.  It is an 8 hour "essay" exam.  That is you solve problems and
> write out solutions much like you do in day to day work...i.e. you get
> partial credit.  It is currently a 4 question exam (you get to pick from at
> least a building or bridge set of questions).  It used to be two 4 hour
> questions that you could pass seperately (i.e. when I took it, you could
> pass the afternoon question but fail the morning question and only have to
> retake the morning part), but I believe that it is now pass or fail it all.
> It is a reasonable hard exam.  The questions are very similar in nature to
> what you will do in the "real" world, except you have serious time
> limitations (you can still get it done in the time allotted, but think of it
> as working on a project with a real tight deadline). Basically, if you know
> the codes rather well (i.e. were to find stuff and how to use/apply the code
> provisions) then you will likely do well.  It is DEFINITELY much tougher
> than the Struct I or Civil PE exams.  In the past, the afternoon problem
> would DEFINITLY have seismic design on it.  I am not sure how it is done now
> that they have gone to the 4 question format.
>
> The Washington Struct III exam is the last part of getting a SE license in
> Washington.  At this point Washington is the only state that uses it that I
> am aware of.  It is a 8 hour exam with 4 "essay" questions on it.  There are
> 2 mandatory questions and then for the final 2 questions you get to pick
> between a bridge question and building question.  It is rather like the
> Struct II exam in over all format (i.e. "essay" problems that you write out
> your solution/calculations and get partical credit), except it is even
> harder.  Most, if not all, the questions have seismic on them. FWIW, I
> believe the passing rate is typically around 5% to 20% (varies from year to
> year).
>
> The California SE exam (aka The Western States exam) is only used in
> California and supposedly is on its way out there as well.  Supposedly, the
> California Legislature is pushing to have a "nationally created and
> recognized" exam used.  So, they may end up using Washington's "system" or
> something much like it.  The exam is a 16 hour "essay" problem exam (i.e.
> write out solutions/calculations and get partial credit)...I believe
> (haven't take it, unlike the others).  From everything I have heard it is
> extrememly difficult, but since I have never taken it, I really cannot
> compare with the others.  If nothing else the 16 hours (two day) is
> daunting.
>
> For most states with a SE license, they require the EIT, the Struct I and
> the Struct II.  I know this is true of Illinois, but I also believe it is
> true of the other states with SE licenses with the exception of Washington
> and California.
>
> Washington requires the Struct II and Struct III.  Since I was not an
> "original candidate" in Washington (i.e. it was not my first license and for
> me it was by reciprosity...at least partially), I am not sure if you take
> the Struct I as part of the SE license process or if you take the Struct I
> to get your PE license.  Since I had already taken the Civil PE (for
> Michigan), the Struct I (for Illinois) and the Struct II (for Illinois), I
> only needed to take and pass the WA Struct III exam to get my SE license
> there (PE license was by pure reciprosity...i.e. fillout the paperwork and
> pay the fee).
>
> California requires the Western States exam (at the moment) to get your SE
> license.  In addition, you must have three California SEs who will act as
> references for you...and you must have at least 3 years (I believe) of
> "structural" experience beyond your PE license (don't know if they will
> consider 3 years beyond your initial PE license or if it must be 3 years
> beyond getting your California PE license...in otherwords, if I got my PE
> license in California this year, would I have to wait 3 years to apply for
> the SE license or could I do it right away since I have had more than 3
> years of experience since I got my PE license in Michigan? Dunno, but will
> likely find out in the future).  And you must have your PE license in order
> to get your SE license (this is true in Washington as well).  FWIW, getting
> your PE license in California is not just a straight forward
> reciprosity...they have two "extra" exams that civils must pass to get their
> PE license...a surveying exam and a seismic exam (both are about 2 to 2.5
> hours long if I recall correctly).
>
> HTH,
>
> Scott Maxwell, PE, SE
> Adrian, MI
>
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Don wrote:
>
> > Stan wrote:
> >
> > "Don't you use the soil pressure and calc. the masonry wall stresses?
> > If you do, you find that reinforcement is required for any height of
> > fill."
> >
> > Not necessarily.  Especially with a larger house, there is a
> > significant dead load placing the wall in compression.  In areas of
> > lesser wind loads, most of this dead load may always be there.  This
> > compression plus the minimal tensile capacity of the mortar joints
> > provide some bending capacity. So, even if an engineering analysis
> > were performed, a wall of a given height and thickness, unreinforced,
> > can withstand  a certain height of fill/lateral load.  I believe that
> > this analysis, plus tons of empirical experience, resulted in the
> > foundation wall tables of CABO, now IRC.
> >
> > PE/SE:
> >
> > I am a PE only (not "only a PE"), licensed in several east coast
> > states.  I took the civil exam, and answered every structural-related
> > question I could find.  It was the first year I heard of the SE exam
> > being offered, but I wanted the flexibility of being able to proctice
> > both civil and structural. Good thing, because I have done both.  I
> > now (for the last 5 years) practice structural only, and am intrigued
> > by the SE license/tests.  I do not think it would benefit my practice
> > significantly, but may add weight in a conflict between two engineers,
> > especially at the legal level.  So, finally to my
> > question:
> >
> > Could someone please expalin to me what the three tests are, how long
> > they are, how difficult they are, and what SE states require which
> > tests?  Could you please reply directly to dbryant61(--nospam--at)cox.net as I am
> > in digest mode.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Donald R. Bryant, PE
> > STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY
> > 518 Bushnell Drive
> > Virginia Beach, VA  23451
> > 757-428-6471
> > fax 757-428-6473
> >
> >
> >
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