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RE: [OT] RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

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As Dean Martin often said,

"Just trying to have a little fun here, folks..."





David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Allen, S.E. [mailto:T.W.Allen(--nospam--at)cox.net] 
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:41 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

David -

Are you under the impression this is a private e-mail conversation with
Stan?

T. William (Bill) Allen, S.E. (CA #2607)	
ALLEN DESIGNS	
Consulting Structural Engineers	
http://www.AllenDesigns.com	
V (949) 248-8588	 .	 F (949) 209-2509	

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 11:40 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: [OT] RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

I don't think it could get much better, Stan...

At least that's what she keeps telling me!!!



My guess is that you were in the Scout horn line...

(thinking low brass...baritone/contra)




Btw, what the heck is the deal with Tom DeLay????



David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Caldwell, Stan [mailto:scaldwell(--nospam--at)halff.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 9:54 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: [OT] RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability
Importance: Low

David:

I agree, drum and bugle corps should NEVER be confused with marching
bands!  The Santa Clara Vanguard is one classy outfit. 

Also, the readers should know just what a gigantic leap you took in
marriage.  Not only is your wife Irish, she is also a former University
of Wisconsin Badger cheerleader!  Obviously, she must be intelligent,
beautiful, sociable, and athletic.  Could it possibly get any better
than that?

Stan R. Caldwell, P.E.
Dallas, Texas

Madison Scouts Drum & Bugle Corps: 1959-1965
University of Wisconsin (BSCE, MSCE): 1965-1971 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:42 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability


Marching band?????

Sacrilege!


SCV is a Drum and Bugle Corps!



David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:27 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

Well, I did let Steve Nash into a party at my house for free senior
year.
Still waiting for those free tickets.

-gm
I hate marching bands. No guitars!

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:29 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

That's ok, Gerard...you have the Santa Clara Vanguard.

Not a bad outfit, either!


David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:47 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

And sometimes you come across those that think drafting is beneath them.
I
personally find it to be a good break from doing math all day. Keeps the
job/day interesting, especially if you work for a firm that does the
same
thing over and over.

It can also be a good tool for structural analysis. You can export into
3-d
programs easily, get spans lengths, section properties, and other little
tricks to speed up your math tasks.

At my college, cad was very much encouraged. We had a nice engineering
computer lab with these huge Sparx stations from HP with big 24 inch
monitors. We used it mostly in surveying and municipal design classes.
The
hardest part was getting a station to work on because the computer
engineering dorks live in the lab and only left their chairs to go
smoke. 

We had a senior design project to graduate, David Topete and I designed
the
San Francisco Giants baseball stadium all in cad for our senior project.
Sure, we didn't know what the hell we were doing, but it's kinda cool to
see
the damn thing actually where we said it should go... and we were better
than 99% of the other graduates at cad when we looked for a job (not
that
anyone wanted to interview us, we didn't go to Cal or Stanford). No
thanks
to the San Francisco Giants or their architect who shall remain nameless
:)
for giving us a set of "Schematic plans" to work from. But fortunately,
we
got a set of plans from an SF structural engineer who went to our lowly
university and did a stadium in Sacramento that was never built.

-gm
Santa Clara University Undergaduate Alum
(No football team whatsoever) Pretty good soccer team most years.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:41 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

Gang:

Please feel free to add my alma matter, Purdue, to that list...

There, Cad is a VERY low priority in the Civil/Structural department.


Every year, for some stupid reason, I try and recruit kids from there
for
both 
Full time and internship programs...


Most of them have NO cad experience WHATSOEVER!

Boy, they sure can write a finite element analysis subroutine in Fortran
though!


A lot of *&^%$##(--nospam--at)$^%&* good THAT does me...!


Every year, I try and get my point across to the powers that be down in
West
LaFayette that in order to make their grads more marketable, they NEED
TO
LEARN CAD!

That goes even for working for firms with draftsmen...!

Maybe in lieu of a foreign language, they might try a semester of CAD...


What response do I get?

Zero...zip.




As Mr. Wright so eloquently pointed out, if you don't know HOW to do a
job,
how can you supervise it?



The really funny thing about the whole issue is that Purdue was that way
about 
HAND DRAFTING in the 80s!!!!!

I was the only one in my group who even knew how to draft (yes, with a t
-
square!) in my senior Design studio!


Where did I learn?

Well, I took graphics/drafting courses all through high school so I had
a
bit of a 
Head start but when I got to college, I had to make a special request to
take additional drafting classes through the architectural department as
the
CE department offered nothing.

Pathetic.


It's a whole mentality that hasn't seemed to change over the course of
many
years.


The football team IS better, though...I have to admit.



 


David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Madden, SE [mailto:gmadden(--nospam--at)maddengine.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:50 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

David Fisher and I have been making this point for years on this list.

The main drawback is you can get the biggest M.I.T. Geek (no offense to
any
alumnus of that fine University on this list (gail)) who can solve a
36x36
stiffness matrix in 5 minutes while eating a burrito and checking their
stock prices on the internet, but the same Genius might not be able to
detail a simple connection detail in 3 hours.

I think the universities should give a little more emphasis to drawings,
connections, and cad DRAFTING. New cad only people come from these
schools
you see on your sick days during Jerry Springer commercials. Yeah, they
know
35 or so autocad commands, but they can't DRAFT worth a shit.

An engineer doing his/her own drafting can leads to many benefits. You
learn
cad, you learn how to put things together, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOU
UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING DRAWN. Most Cad people are simply Xerox
machines.
This takes time, there is a learning curve, but a few months into it and
you
will quickly see the benefits.

-gm

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 7:53 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

Warren:

Like I said...my opinion was based on my life experiences only.



Having worked with both systems over the last 20 years, 
I have found that having the engineers draft their own drawings is 
far more efficient and results in more accurate documents. 


If your system works then, great...you must have very competent 
Guys working for you.



David L. Fisher SE PE
Fisher + partners
372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610
 
312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax
 
312.622.0409 mobile
 
www.fpse.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Foy, Warren [mailto:Warren.Foy(--nospam--at)mhgrp.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 8:35 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability

David and Matt,

Should I fire Rob and Eric?

-----Original Message-----
From: David Fisher [mailto:dfisher(--nospam--at)fpse.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:20 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Evaluate drafters' reliability


Simple:

Don't use drafters...have the ENGINEERS who are designing
And detailing the building do the drawings...!

That's what we do...


After spending six years at large A/E firms with draftsmen, I've found
That it is much less productive over time...errors are much more likely.

Here's how it goes:

-	SE marks up drawing
-	Cad tech picks up marks
-	SE reviews new plot and re-marks
-	Cad tech picks up marks...again
-	SE reviews new plot and re-marks
-	....


You get the idea.



No offense to the fine Cad techs who are out there...that's just been my
Experience...nothing more.




David L. Fisher SE PE
Senior Principal
Fisher+Partners

372 West Ontario
Chicago 60610

312.573.1701
312.573.1726 fax

312.622.0409 mobile

www.fpse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wontae Kim [mailto:Wontae.Kim(--nospam--at)unistresscorp.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 8:15 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org.
Subject: Evaluate drafters' reliability

Hi!

Is there any method how to evaluate drafting reliability?
How can I quantify drafters' reliability?
 Some errors are minor, while others are critical...
Is there any standardized method to evaluate drawings (and drafter)?


****Wontae Kim****
Unistress Corp.
Pittsfield, MA 01201
(Tel)  413-629-2031
(Fax) 413-499-0824

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