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RE: Unlicensed firms and engineers

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Sorry Paul, 
I just had take a shot at you good ole boys... Go Sooners & Go Cowboys.
I'm a big O-State Fan, I can't seem to get them out of my blood for some
reason (not that I want to if they keep winning).

So I am correct as long as you don?t bring it to the attention of
BORPELS the city generally is not going to care. It?s a personal
decision of the Engineer.

I am pretty sure this is all about money, if an engineer can have his
own slave labor do the same work that some unlicensed guy did and make 2
or three times the money then that is what he is going to do.

If an engineer is going to have some other person give him plans that
were given to him by someone else's slave labor where he makes a small
bit of money but still has the same liability then many engineers will
probably pass, regardless of the complexity of the project.

Making a $1000 on a project just for a review and stamp may not
necessarily worth the $7000 you spend in court if the contractor decides
to cut corners.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Crocker [mailto:pcrocker(--nospam--at)reidmidd.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:03 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: RE: Unlicensed firms and engineers

The key point isn't about Oklahoma; the key point is that it is a legal
issue not a building code issue.  The building code doesn't spell out
what it take to become a PE or how you can lose it.  In fact, the
building code never really requires a PE specifically; instead it
generally refers to a "registered design professional" which could be a
PE if that is how the state sees it, or perhaps could be an architect or
anything else if that is how the state sees it.  The details are all
handled by state law and state PE boards.  Each state has a little
different take on the matter, but there are some common themes.  Coming
from the contracting side, you could think of it this way: Does the
building code tell you how to get a contractor's license or bonding and
insurance or detail any necessary compliance with state and federal wage
laws and OSHA.  I don't see anywhere in the building code that says you
have to pay minimum wage, but I suspect the state will "remind" you if
they find out you don't.  You can make arguments about the need for
definitions all you want, but most state boards are very clear on these
matters, and many are willing to "remind" you of their rules if you
start breaking them.  If you have a problem with this, you should take
it up with your local PE board or legislature.  I don't think you will
get very far, but you will get further than rhetorically arguing it
here.  

Paul Crocker, PE, SE

>>> "Kevin Polin" <KevinPolin(--nospam--at)Cyberonic.com> 07/20/05 10:52AM >>>
Oklahoma has always been backwards... that*s why I left. I grew up in
Shawnee.

Kevin


-----Original Message-----
From: Arvel L. Williams, P.E. [mailto:awilliams(--nospam--at)gwsquared.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:40 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org 
Subject: RE: Unlicensed firms and engineers

Kevin,

In Oklahoma you have to be physically in the same office.  It is not in
the
building code, but in the Rules and Regulations of the PE Board.

Arvel

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Polin [mailto:KevinPolin(--nospam--at)Cyberonic.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:27 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org 
Subject: RE: Unlicensed firms and engineers


Hold the phone*. Save the Election, just for a minute at least*

This is what confuses me, what is your definition of *supervision*?

If an engineering firm creates some calcs and drawings you review them
and have them make a few corrections and add a few additions to the
drawings. Make a few phone calls. Is this considered direct supervision?
You supervised the final drawings.

What if you leave the office, does this mean that while you were out of
the office, the people were no longer directly being supervised by you,
so the package is null and void? Or lets say you were out of the state
or country and you called someone and had him or her correct some items
or make some additions does this constitute direct supervision because
you are not directly in arms length distance away from that person?

I don*t see anywhere in the code that says they have to be in your
office sitting at a desk or in a cubicle that is 3 ½ feet from you.
Better yet what distance constitutes correct.

I have heard some of you say that if you get a bad set of drawings, you
will turn down a project, but yet architects give you guys drawings all
the time that you accept them and there is no conflict of interest even
though the main design of the house was not under your direct
supervision? But if a European engineer gives you a set of drawings and
calcs then they are null and void because you were not in the same room
as the guy in Europe when he was creating the drawings?

I have talked to some engineers that don*t use computers they still do
things by hand, they are not wrong, but there feeling that *things have
to be done by hand* is just a difference in philosophy and
interpretation (the interpretation being that Real engineering is done
with a slide rule).

Waiting for that Definition.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: David Topete [mailto:davetopete(--nospam--at)yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:26 AM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org 
Subject: RE: Unlicensed firms and engineers

Yeah, I agree...  I kind of rambled on with my reply.
I second the motion.  It's official:  J. Truesdell is
president-elect of this SEAINT list server.  Three
cheers.
DT, SE
SF, CA

--- "Arvel L. Williams, P.E."
<awilliams(--nospam--at)gwsquared.com> wrote:

> WOW.  I like this description.  Very to the point.
>
> Arvel
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jordan Truesdell, PE
> [mailto:seaint1(--nospam--at)truesdellengineering.com] 
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:16 AM
>   To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org 
>   Subject: Re: Unlicensed firms and engineers
>
>
>   Kevin Polin wrote:
>     Dear Board,
>
>
>
>     *I'm amazed to find out how many people
> generally don't know that
> stamping a set of plans is the result of a design,
> not a separate service we
> offer.*
>
>
>
>     I am amazed that you do not see this as a
> legitimate business
> opportunity.
>
>
>
>      *There is a common misconception, aided by the
> plan-stamping architects
> and engineers out there, that plan-stamping is a
> legitimate service. Most
> people assume that it is the equivalent of a private
> consultant reviewing a
> set of documents for compliance, and required
> because the town or county
> planning office is to lazy or too risk-averse to do
> it themselves.*
>     <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
>     <!--[endif]-->
>
>     I do not want to get flamed here but maybe you
> should reconsider your
> thinking. If a geotechnical engineer gives you a
> recommendation and you
> follow the recommendation then that*s an accepted
> form a business.
>
>
>
>
>   Well, the Geotechnical engineer provides me a
> report with his seal.  I
> didn't do the work, so I don't claim the result - my
> drawings either note a
> bearing pressure in accordance with the IBC
> prescriptive loads, or reference
> the report by name, date, and person sealing the
> work.  Same for civil
> drawings.  I'm not sealing their work. In fact, I
> won't commission their
> work either - I require the owner procure the report
> directly.
>
>   There is a "business opportunity" here, but it
> relies on the acceptance of
> the building department.  I have reviewed a set of
> plans prepared by other,
> out-of-state engineers.  If I find that the analysis
> is correct, I will
> write a letter stating my findings and seal the
> letter. For laymen like
> yourself, I suppose the seal isn't clear enough in
> its meaning. A seal does
> not indicate the approval of the signing engineer,
> but an affirmation that
> the engineer personally prepared or substantially
> supervised the preparation
> of the work (plans are just a readable form of the
> design and analysis
> behind the structure).  Perhaps, if every seal bore
> the inscription: "This
> document was created under my direct supervision" it
> would make more sense
> as to why it is illegal to "plan-stamp."
>
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