Need a book? Engineering books recommendations...

Return to index: [Subject] [Thread] [Date] [Author]

RE: Plan stampers

[Subject Prev][Subject Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Jim you are absolutely right.

I have come to the conclusion that it is strictly a personal, decision
of the engineer. 

Slice it however you want it overall has nothing to do with legality. 

Based on the examples cited here, If you are going to get dragged into a
lawsuit, then you are going to get dragged into a lawsuit, whether it's
your fault or not. 

Receive the plans, Review the plans, make some notes, seal the plans,
and go to dinner and take your wife shopping. Live life.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Wilson [mailto:wilsonengineers(--nospam--at)yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:21 PM
To: seaint(--nospam--at)seaint.org
Subject: Re: Plan stampers

I guess I'm struggling with what the definitive
illegal offense is in some cases.  I'm straight with
the illegality of plan stamping like the guy from PA
that offered to stamp plans for $9 a sheet, or
whatever it was.  That's perfectly clear.  I'm also
straight with the concept of direct supervision. 
Whether the intent is to ensure that younger
unlicensed engineers are being properly taught, or to
ensure that the stamping engineer is fully aware of
what is in the design, the assumptions, etc., that
aspect is clear.

But is it clear legally if one firm prepares a design
and set of drawings, but needs them stamped by an
outside engineer because the firm doesn't have an
in-house engineer licensed in a particular state?  Any
possibility for direct supervision is out the window. 
By what I've been reading today and have read here in
the past, this is considered an illegal act.  Now, if
that outside engineer does full due diligence and
provides an independent calculation or full check set,
and then stamps the drawings or calcs, has that
engineer acted within the law?  I expect so, as many
of us have done that at one point or another.  But
what about the firm that did the original design and
prepared the original drawings?  Have they acted
illegally by "practicing" in another state without
license or perhaps without proper supervision?  It
sounds like maybe they have.

That's where it doesn't seem black and white.  The
concept of "direct supervision" seems to be in
contradiction with stamping a drawing prepared by
anyone other than an employee under responsible
charge, even if the PE provided a proper check set of
calcs and validated the design.

Different states with different laws don't make this
any easier. 

Jim Wilson, PE
Stroudsburg, PA

--- Christopher Wright <chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jul 20, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Jim Wilson wrote:
> 
> > These board disciplinary decisions that have been
> > mentioned make the matter sound so black and
> white.
> Actually it is pretty much black and white. As an
> engineer, you're 
> obligated to carry personal responsibility for the
> quality and 
> substance of the work represented by a set of
> drawings, and you can't 
> take responsibility for something over which you
> have no control. You 
> can delegate the actual work, but only to the extent
> that you control 
> the results of such work.
> 
> The seal on a report or a set of drawings indicates
> that the engineer 
> can accept responsibility for the drawings'
> substance and content and 
> has in fact done so. The seal doesn't attest to
> quality so much as 
> responsibility for quality.
> 
> Christopher Wright P.E. |"They couldn't hit an
> elephant at
> chrisw(--nospam--at)skypoint.com   | this distance" (last words
> of Gen.
> .......................................| John
> Sedgwick, Spotsylvania 
> 1864)
> http://www.skypoint.com/~chrisw/
> 
> 
> ******* ****** ******* ******** ******* *******
> ******* ***
> *   Read list FAQ at:
> http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
> * 
> *   This email was sent to you via Structural
> Engineers 
> *   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC)
> server. To 
> *   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
> *
> *   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
> *
> *   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any
> email you 
> *   send to the list is public domain and may be
> re-posted 
> *   without your permission. Make sure you visit our
> web 
> *   site at: http://www.seaint.org 
> ******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ******
> ******** 
> 


******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
* 
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers 
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To 
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you 
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted 
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web 
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org 
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ******** 



******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***
*   Read list FAQ at: http://www.seaint.org/list_FAQ.asp
* 
*   This email was sent to you via Structural Engineers 
*   Association of Southern California (SEAOSC) server. To 
*   subscribe (no fee) or UnSubscribe, please go to:
*
*   http://www.seaint.org/sealist1.asp
*
*   Questions to seaint-ad(--nospam--at)seaint.org. Remember, any email you 
*   send to the list is public domain and may be re-posted 
*   without your permission. Make sure you visit our web 
*   site at: http://www.seaint.org 
******* ****** ****** ****** ******* ****** ****** ********